Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy • Hacker News Board

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

#391

Post by janeroe » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 4:31 PM UTC

jonathankoren wrote: post #346

janeroe wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, I thought your "tax cuts not paying for themselves" is a figure of speech. And that's a literal quote. What is it supposed to mean? Like if you steal less from the people, you get less if that's your only source?

As an old person who actually remembers when George Bush (the dad) coined the term “voodoo economics” during the 1980 primary against Reagan, I’ll explain the central thesis to what backers call “supply side” economics. It’s basically the same logic as selling merchandise at low cost. How does the government make money? Volume! Seriously. The argument is that cutting taxes will spur economic growth that will grow the…

We are looking at it from different perspectives. You from the central planner's one. I'm from the position of an acting person, someone who doesn't believe anyone owes them anything, but at the same time preferring to keep what's earned. Someone who's not bought into redistribution programs that spend $4 to redistribute each $1 (actual research for the US), or any involuntary redistribution schemes for that matter.

> The argument is that cutting taxes will spur economic growth

So what do I care for some abstract growth? If my well-being isn't rising, and it isn't if you take away through taxes, excises, indirect taxes half of what I earn with hard toil, not interested.

> cover for their real goal of simply cutting social programs under the guise of “we can’t afford it”

And that's a good thing.

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

#392

Post by randomopining » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 4:33 PM UTC

kyleee wrote: post #165

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh come on... > https://web.archive.org/web/20171106063502/https://www.thegu... > Trump dump: president throws entire box of fish food into precious koi carp pond > While his host, Japan’s prime minister Shinzo Abe, spoons small amounts of feed, the US leader gives the fish a large feast > Having apparently lost patience with tempting the fish to the edge with modest offerings of food, Trump simply upended his wooden…

This is one of my favorite memories from the Trump years; and such a fun example of the depths to which our media establishment has sunk

Fox did multiple coverages on Obama's tan suit that he wore once or twice... lol.

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

#393

Post by WhompingWindows » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 4:33 PM UTC

throwaway894345 wrote: post #181

bonyt wrote: post #98

I've taken a news literacy class at Stony Brook about 10 years ago, when it was then a relatively new program. I think it's an incredibly valuable thing. It was taught in more the general sense of how to apply critical thinking to judge news stories. To the people saying that this just instills propaganda about specific news sources: consider learning a little bit more about the class. It teaches about how to tell jo…

> It teaches about how to tell journalism apart from other kinds of information, like entertainment and opinion; the hallmarks of good reporting, like transparency; discerning assertion from verification, and evidence from inference; the idea of seeking out multiple sources and how to reconcile them, etc. It's more a toolbox of how to inform oneself, regardless of any specific source. Provided it can stick to that, I…

There's always been propagandistic journalism, since colonial times there were multiple newspapers and pamphlets with highly biased information. The question is, do we throw up our hands and say education is politicized, we can't do anything? Or do we try our best to teach news literacy, knowing like English or History class, it'll be infused with the personal views of the teacher.

In my view, you see 20-30% of Americans won't take the vaccine that is patently obviously far better than catching COVID. This is a massive self-inflicted wound due to the misinformation and disinformation of bad actors, charlatans, and Russian agents.

Even with a non-objective teacher, we NEED to give space for debate and discussion on news sources, otherwise we will continue to allow our "freedom" to consume garbage content to overpower our education to process that content. I'm all for freedom of speech, but we should pair that with robust education on information diets, biases, logical fallacies, lying, etc. The fact that still, 60% are educated on vaccines and trust doctors, that is a hopeful sign, that in future generations we can banish this ridiculous anti-expertise narrative rampant on the political extremes.

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

#394

Post by beebeepka » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 4:37 PM UTC

ModernMech wrote: post #388

JamesBarney wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Journalism is changing. And to pretend like it's not is adding fuel to the fire. Younger journalists are less likely to see their job as being a neutral arbiter of truth and more likely to see themselves as part of the culture war. I'm a liberal but just as the ACLU is not the same organization it was 20 years ago, neither is The Gray Lady.

Journalists have never been "neutral arbiters of truth". That's just never been their role in society. The role of journalists is to collect and analyze information, and to disseminate it to the public. The "truth" of this information is determined at an individual level, no one is an "arbiter" in this process. Journalism as a field maybe can help us arrive at some truths eventually, but it's an iterative process of…

Man, I wish I had the time, ability, and dedication to express my thoughts the way you just did. Thanks for doing my part

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

#395

Post by wolverine876 » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 4:40 PM UTC

srswtf123 wrote: post #60

wolverine876 wrote: post #32

> Students say they often didn't see why, for example, a company writing about climate change receiving funding from the fossil fuel industry could skew the story. Many assume that if a social media influencer has tons of followers, it means they're trustworthy. I see a similar outcome among adults, but these are adults who I know were raised to be skeptical (in the sense of science or critical thought), to think ind…

I’ve wondered this too. So far, all I can discern is that smartphones behave like a tasp, from Larry Niven’s scifi writings. A tasp is a device that stimulates the pleasure centers of your brain. This rapidly leads to addiction and enslavement of the person(s) the tasp is used on. We’re very easily controlled, and so many of us don’t even realize it.

Much of online content, including social media and games, are designed to be exactly that. Here's a great description from and early Facebook executive Tim Kendall, who compares it to tobacco company's work to promote addiction:

https://energycommerce.house.gov/sites/democrats.energycomme...

Social media preys on the most primal parts of your brain. The algorithm maximizes your attention by hitting you repeatedly with content that triggers your strongest emotions - it aims to provoke, shock, and enrage.

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

#396

Post by jeffbee » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 4:42 PM UTC

Fenrisulfr wrote: post #139

jeffbee wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well let's examine all the reasons you might suspect the silly Biden laptop story to have been planted by the GRU. 1: Rudy Giuliani is involved 2: Rudy Giuliani specifically traveled to Ukraine in 2019 to dig up dirt on Biden, a mission that he publicly announced. 3: Rudy Giuliani is the GRU's "useful idiot" according to a report prepared for the White House by US intelligence services.

Wait what? Number 3 doesn't ring a bell. Which report specifically? Was that the exact phrase?

Giuliani met[1] with Andriy Derkach[2] on his 2019 Ukraine trip. Derkach is the target of a long-running US counter-intelligence operation. In September 2020 the Treasury Department sanctioned[3] Derkach for his work against American interests on behalf of Russian intelligence services. Prior to the sanction, US national security adviser Robert O’Brien personally advised President Trump that Giuliani's information should be considered tainted by Russia[4].

1: https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-lawmaker-says-he-met-trump...

2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrii_Derkach

3: https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/sm1118

4: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/giuliani-bi...

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

#397

Post by wolverine876 » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 4:42 PM UTC

busymom0 wrote: post #357

JamesBarney wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Journalism is changing. And to pretend like it's not is adding fuel to the fire. Younger journalists are less likely to see their job as being a neutral arbiter of truth and more likely to see themselves as part of the culture war. I'm a liberal but just as the ACLU is not the same organization it was 20 years ago, neither is The Gray Lady.

Until a decade ago, journalists used to be in touch with the everyday average Joe, made sustainable salary but not too much, used to go on ground to sites to report what was going on, present the facts and let people make up their minds. Now a days, it’s become a circle jerk on who can get the most twitter likes, they follow and retweet people of their same political side, get multi million salaries, have zero idea o…

> get multi million salaries

Employment and salaries in journalism have dropped precipitously.

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

#398

Post by ethbr0 » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 4:42 PM UTC

paul7986 wrote: post #380

ethbr0 wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's amazing how different of a story one gets from ICU nurses and doctors, vs mainstream media. In retrospect, I think the story of the pandemic is going to be how much was concealed from the public, and the impact those images that did break through had (e.g. Dr Li Wenliang's selfies, hooked up to oxygen support). It's easy to live in an abstract world, until you've seen someone struggling for breath or being put u…

Ive shared my view on media here before and always get downvoted. That is fine tons and tons of people hook themselves up their boogeyman of choice (Faux News, MSNbsee, C&N, NewsMax, EpochTimes, etc, etc .. all media driven by dollars and making investors and or their parent companies raking in the dough) and let it control their lives. After two months into the pandemic I was done with it and went about living my li…

On the matter of changing guidance, I think the pandemic exposed the public's ignorance of real science.

Science is a verb, not a noun.

It's easy to forget that when it's taught as a series of facts, pre-discovered long ago. Most students are never faced with the unknown edge of science (until grad school).

Because fundamentally, usefully, that's what science really is -- a method for systematically exploring the unknown.

What that actually looks like in practice -- fits and starts, ideas and experiments and retractions, conflicting data resolution, framework guesses and confirmations and rejection -- has largely been forgotten (after ~1990, in the developed media?).

And becoming used to reporting on scientific discoveries is fine... until we're mode switched to reporting on scientific research, and neither media nor public understand the distinction.

Science is always wrong. Until it's not. And that's its strength.

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

#399

Post by wolverine876 » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 4:45 PM UTC

janeroe wrote: post #391

jonathankoren wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an old person who actually remembers when George Bush (the dad) coined the term “voodoo economics” during the 1980 primary against Reagan, I’ll explain the central thesis to what backers call “supply side” economics. It’s basically the same logic as selling merchandise at low cost. How does the government make money? Volume! Seriously. The argument is that cutting taxes will spur economic growth that will grow the…

We are looking at it from different perspectives. You from the central planner's one. I'm from the position of an acting person, someone who doesn't believe anyone owes them anything, but at the same time preferring to keep what's earned. Someone who's not bought into redistribution programs that spend $4 to redistribute each $1 (actual research for the US), or any involuntary redistribution schemes for that matter.…

Perhaps your personal welfare is strongly linked to and dependent on that of others. For example, you need roads, security, education, health care, food, electricity, communication, law, customers, vendors, employees, business partners, etc etc.

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

#400

Post by throwaway894345 » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 4:52 PM UTC

wolverine876 wrote: post #259

hn8788 wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have to "what if" it, people have already looked into it. In "The Coddling of the American Mind" they cite studies showing that universities are more left-leaning than they've ever been.

> In "The Coddling of the American Mind" they cite studies showing that universities are more left-leaning than they've ever been. What do they mean by 'left-leaning'?: My professors might have been left-leaning, but I rarely knew their politics. The question is what the students are learning. Also, conservatives have moved far rightward, which might make others relatively more leftish. Also, reactionaries politicize…

> Also, conservatives have moved far rightward, which might make others relatively more leftish.

I don't think this is true, I think the left-wing media has fixated increasingly on the far-right or exaggerating the extent to which individuals on the right are "far-right" which gives the impression that the right is drifting, but it's just the media changing how it represents the right. To be clear, the right is changing, but it's not perceptibly drifting to the right.

> Also, reactionaries politicize lots of things, such as climate change. Education and research isn't affirmative action for conservatives - they need to prove their ideas. Climate change denial lacks the science behind it; it shouldn't be taught. That doesn't make climate change education biased toward liberals.

2 things:

1. We don't even need to invoke conservative beliefs (certainly we don't need to cherry-pick the most overtly anti-science of conservative beliefs), we can look at moderate liberal beliefs, like colorblind approaches to combatting racism which are equally vilified and actively suppressed.

2. If we're talking about "ideas competing in some marketplace" then why are the left so frequently resorting to cancellation of intellectuals rather than debate? E.g., consider all of the petitions to have professors fired or to have papers deleted from journals. And I'm not talking about dumb kids circulating petitions to have their professors fired, but university faculty circulating petitions to have their colleagues fired for ideological (not factual) transgressions.

But every time we talk about this, left-wing folks pretend that the debate is whether or not to allow creationism or climate denial in the classroom. This seems transparently disingenuous to me.