Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship • Hacker News Board

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#391

Post by GordonS » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 4:27 PM UTC

shell0x wrote: post #187

circular_logic wrote: post #63

Interesting facts about renouncing American citizenship: - There is renunciation fee that has to be paid and currently stands at $2,350 (the highest in the world).[1] - A final tax return will sill need to be filed. [1] - An Expatriation tax is payable if [..] Your net worth is $2 million or more on the date of your expatriation. you will be treated as having disposed of your assets the day before your expatriation a…

While $2350 is expensive, compare that to Australia. My friend got sponsored by his partner for a partner visa and the fee is AUD7,850 for most applicants. https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/visas/getting-a-visa/visa-li... It's a huge rip-off like everything in this country. The $2350 seem to be cheaper than fees for filing annual tax returns for the next 50 years :)

On the other side of the equation (getting citizenship, rather than renouncing it), here in the UK I have a Chinese friend for whom it cost over £20k to gain citizenship after she married a local. (this was the total paid to the government over, I think, a 3 year period).

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#392

Post by emodendroket » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 4:27 PM UTC

fantod wrote: post #386

emodendroket wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, am I supposed to feel sorry for high-income people because they have to pay tax to continue to benefit from US citizenship and US embassies? I don't really, nor do I consider it getting "screwed." I think it is only fair that well-to-do expats should pay into the system like everybody else. If they don't want to, I welcome them to take the article's lead and give up their citizenship.

The thing is, many of these expats aren't even "paying into the system" anyway. I have to file US taxes but can deduct what I pay in taxes in my country of residency, which is higher than I'd pay in the US; as a result, I don't actually owe any US taxes. But, like another commenter said, I have to pay thousands to someone to figure out how to even file all this stuff. In other words, some local accountant is making b…

I could probably be convinced to get on board with an initiative to make filing easier, but this is a different argument than I was responding to.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#393

Post by depressedpanda » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 4:28 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #280

academia_hack wrote: post #42

It's so irritating to be an American that has moved overseas. Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else, just because of where you were born. Thanks to IRS regulations, 90% of investment firms will just reject me outright rather than deal with the paperwork. Getting someone to help file my inordinately complex taxes costs thousands of dollars more than I act…

Most people don't actually owe anything so the burden is mostly administrative, and what you're going through it for is not "where you were born" but continued citizenship and attendant benefits. As the article describes, you're free to give that up if you don't think it is worth it.

The article states

> "There are probably 20,000 or 30,000 people who want to [renounce citizenship], but they can’t get the appointment," Lesperance said. "There’s not a peak demand — the system’s capacity has peaked."

Also, it seems you need to pay a non trivial sum to do it, which is a real problem for US citizens abroad who are not rich.

"Free to give that up" does not apply, unfortunately.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#394

Post by goodpoint » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 4:29 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #288

goodpoint wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Since this article concerns itself with rich overseas Americans, I think it's relevant Not many millionaires are getting arrested in general, due to the availability of lawyers and so on. The US support might be very relevant for a war reported captured by ISIS. But most millionaires are not going to be in those locations and/or able to afford good private security.

Ok, but they're also not very sympathetic. I don't feel sorry for anybody who can afford private security that he has to pay if he wants to hang on to the benefits of US citizenship.

So?

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#395

Post by Leherenn » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 4:32 PM UTC

danmaz74 wrote: post #144

baxuz wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how wealth has much to do with it. It's a question of citizenship and taxes. The other extreme is what we currently have in Croatia: A vast group of people who don't live here have citizenship and they express their patriotism by voting for the conservative right without exception for the past 30 years. If you want to be treated as a citizen — live here and pay your taxes. If you don't, the door's that wa…

If you're Italian and living abroad, you can vote to elect one of the few members of parliament which actually represent migrated Italians. This way they can still have a bit of representation, but without the same amount of influence as if they were living in the country.

Is the ratio of electors/MP different for expats vs those living in the country?

I can certainly understand the anger of the GP, apparently roughly 25% of the Croatian citizens do not live in the country. As an expat myself, having a say in how my home country is run is nice, but I feel it's a bit "easy", because I mostly do not have to live with the consequence of my choices.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#396

Post by s1artibartfast » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 4:32 PM UTC

fourthwaveska wrote: post #190

zarkov99 wrote: post #52

Of course they are. When the dominant narrative is that America is a racist hellscape, built on oppression and plunder then things like patriotism and civic spirit seem absurd, quaint notions, ripe for ridicule.

Patriotism? What exactly is that word to you? To me it is merey loyalty to mud.

Caring about your society, institutional values, and countrymen.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#397

Post by depressedpanda » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 4:34 PM UTC

psychlops wrote: post #155

circular_logic wrote: post #63

Interesting facts about renouncing American citizenship: - There is renunciation fee that has to be paid and currently stands at $2,350 (the highest in the world).[1] - A final tax return will sill need to be filed. [1] - An Expatriation tax is payable if [..] Your net worth is $2 million or more on the date of your expatriation. you will be treated as having disposed of your assets the day before your expatriation a…

The stimulus checks allowed them to afford to renounce citizenship.

You're assuming everyone got a stimulus check. That's not the case.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#398

Post by boulos » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 4:37 PM UTC

hnthrwy1111 wrote: post #250

alephnan wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have a duty not to comply. If you're making income in America, you owe US tax taxes. If you are a permanent resident of the United States, you owe US taxes. Whether the IRS is using mafia tactics or not, what you are describing is tax evasion. There are legal ways to minimize your tax burden, but this is horrible advise.

In my case as an accidental American I was not born in the US, I have never lived in the US, I have never worked in the US, I receive no benefits from the US, I was ineligible for the covid stimulus, I am unable to vote in US elections. It's comical to categorize my refusal to participate in this scam as tax evasion. I don't live in the US, I live in a supposedly sovereign nation. Just as Americans pointed out the ab…

Can you clarify how you are an accidental American? E.g., were you born on a US base in another country?

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#399

Post by marcosdumay » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 4:38 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #184

mgbmtl wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> surrendering US citizenship is a logical choice Only because of US laws. I have two citizenships, but one residency. In most Western countries, being a resident is associated with healthcare and pension, so having one residency is logical.

> Only because of US laws. I have two citizenships, but one residency. U.S. citizenship carries extraterritorial benefits. For example, we're pretty good at getting our people out of thorny situations, even at great national expense. If someone isn't paying to support that, it makes sense to force a revocation decision.

Most countries grant those same benefits.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#400

Post by emodendroket » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 4:38 PM UTC

goodpoint wrote: post #394

emodendroket wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but they're also not very sympathetic. I don't feel sorry for anybody who can afford private security that he has to pay if he wants to hang on to the benefits of US citizenship.

So?

So "so?" is my reaction to wailing about their being taxed.