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Why we won’t be supporting Sign in with Apple

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Re: Why we won’t be supporting Sign in with Apple

#391

Post by rkangel »

msh wrote: post #326
rahimnathwani wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"all their arguments apply to all third-party sign-ons" No they don't. Other sign-on options don't obfuscate the email address. They are likely removing FB login as otherwise their next app update will be rejected by Apple for supporting third party login but not Apple login.

As a user I can't see why any random app needs to know my true email address.

Because it's your identity. Login systems have moved away from the 'username' concept that we used to use, because it was another thing we could forget. Email addresses are inherently unique and allow identifying a person for support calls or login or whatever.

I'm not saying this is necessarily a good thing, but this is how things work and I don't have a better suggestion.

Re: Why we won’t be supporting Sign in with Apple

#392

Post by grishka »

tomklein wrote: post #243
grishka wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also there are services that log you out after some time. You aren't doing anything wrong, you're simply using the service, but at some point you open it and see a login form. Now, I don't understand why do sessions have to have a lifetime at all, this is terrible UX, but clicking one button to log back in instead of actually typing stuff on the keyboard is much more convenient.

I guess a lot of times it’s for security or to minimize storage over time. Sometimes you are only logged in for the browser session, so if you close it, it removes your session. Most smaller sites do have the remember me button to opt in for longer sessions and do not implement a session renew feature.

> Sometimes you are only logged in for the browser session, so if you close it, it removes your session.

Probably, and this shouldn't be a thing. Except maybe for banks, but even then, it's debatable. Here's a handy list of cases when I want to be logged out:

1. I click the log out button.

Which I don't ever do either, because it's my personal device.

Re: Why we won’t be supporting Sign in with Apple

#393

Post by L3viathan »

lilyball wrote: post #330
sudoit wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily. I have an app with 1,000 users, and about 99% of them choose to obfuscate. My app isn’t untrustworthy at all either. It’s an experimental app which attempts to let users create an iOS app on iOS. My suspicion is that people choose to obfuscate because it’s what’s selected by default.

My recollection is the first time I used Sign In With Apple it forced me to choose (no default), and after that it defaulted to my last choice. I expect 99% are obfuscating because that’s the sensible choice to make. Giving an app my real email should only be done if there’s an explicit need for this, such as being able to log in from non-Apple devices.

You make a good point, and in general I agree, but it introduces additional headaches if I think about logging in from a non-Apple device later.

Re: Why we won’t be supporting Sign in with Apple

#394

Post by whynaut »

CiaranMcNulty wrote: post #359
jessaustin wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sharing trip information is done using registered email. Could you provide any details? How is such "registered" email different than any other email?

"by using the email account you registered with"

not GP but like, ok, why can’t that be sent from any other email (user-provided or otherwise)?

Re: Why we won’t be supporting Sign in with Apple

#395

Post by tallanvor »

lilyball wrote: post #331
randomchars wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: > If a customer contacts us asking for support, and we need to look up something in their account, typically we can just ask them for the email address on their account. But with “Hide My Email” that wouldn’t be easily possible, because the customer would have to figure out the privaterelay.appleid.com email address used for their account. > Furthermore, if there are platforms where AnyList doesn’t…

For the first point, the app can explicitly tell the user what their login is, or otherwise assign some unique identifier the user can use when contacting support. The app can also offer to contact support for them, which can pre-fill the user identifier. For the second, that’s entirely the user’s choice. Your app can also allow them to associate a new email address for this purpose (which strikes me as exactly what…

And when you're using the web app on a desktop? There's no easy sharing mechanism there.

Re: Why we won’t be supporting Sign in with Apple

#396

Post by gemvox »

Firehawke wrote: post #388
imron wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Meant to" doesn't mean "is", and even if 99% of people do what they are "meant to", that still leaves millions of people doing it the "wrong" way.

Yep. I rarely run into people who use their iCloud email, and that goes for both the technically inclined and the average users. Locking things down like this seems to have some serious negatives that Apple needs to reconsider their approach for.

But you don't need to have your iCloud mail set as the primary mail for your AppleID. You don't even need to create an iCloud mail when you create an iCloud/AppleID account, it's an optional step. I recently created another iCloud test account and it's also not shoved in your face or anything, it's a small little button called "Don't have an email address?" somewhere.

So I don't even really understand how people get into this situation.

Re: Why we won’t be supporting Sign in with Apple

#397

Post by coldtea »

sudoit wrote: post #277
AnonC wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obfuscation of the email address is an explicit choice by the user when using Sign in with Apple. It’s not something forced by the service. If users are choosing to do that, it says something about the lack of trust the users have with whatever they’re signing up for.

Not necessarily. I have an app with 1,000 users, and about 99% of them choose to obfuscate. My app isn’t untrustworthy at all either. It’s an experimental app which attempts to let users create an iOS app on iOS. My suspicion is that people choose to obfuscate because it’s what’s selected by default.

>My app isn’t untrustworthy at all either.

That's up to the user to decide. For me trustworthy = something like Basecamp, Amazon, etc, not some random small app.

Re: Why we won’t be supporting Sign in with Apple

#398

Post by mvanbaak »

thekyle wrote: post #123
alerighi wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean it can be better for privacy if you think about Google/Facebook loging. But it will prevent adding all third party login services, potentially even ones that are more privacy respecting than Apple. Also there are cases where a "sign in with " is the only option that makes sense because you really want to integrate with the API of this provider. Take for example a "sign in with GitHub". Or in case of services c…

I think Apple does allow apps to limit social sign in options where it makes sense. So for example, an email app could have sign in with Google, Microsoft, and Yahoo! but not Apple.

Icloud mail is a thing

Re: Why we won’t be supporting Sign in with Apple

#399

Post by dalore »

crazygringo wrote: post #157

As they point out at the very bottom, all their arguments apply to all third-party sign-ons, so they're removing Facebook as well. So there's nothing specifically against Apple, despite the title seeming to imply it -- just that they're taking the move right now because of Apple's new policy coming into effect. I've got to say, I really wish there were a way to know whether I already used Facebook, Google, or Apple t…

Paperspace has this with their Google integration. And I've implemented this pattern before in web dev.

You return to the site and if you have logged in with social media site before, and it detected you are still logged in, it will auto login for you.

Re: Why we won’t be supporting Sign in with Apple

#400

Post by thaway757383884 »

AnonC wrote: post #228
rahimnathwani wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"all their arguments apply to all third-party sign-ons" No they don't. Other sign-on options don't obfuscate the email address. They are likely removing FB login as otherwise their next app update will be rejected by Apple for supporting third party login but not Apple login.

Obfuscation of the email address is an explicit choice by the user when using Sign in with Apple. It’s not something forced by the service. If users are choosing to do that, it says something about the lack of trust the users have with whatever they’re signing up for.

The biggest problem is that Apple insists on tying the fake email with your iCloud email, which the vast majority of people don’t use.

If they tied it instead to what people’s normal mail was, a lot of issues would be averted.

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