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Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

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Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#391

Post by lostjohnny »

tmsh wrote: post #262
favorited wrote: post #5

Here[0] is a post by someone else who (by his own account) "worked for RMS longer than any other programmer." While he obviously has had a long relationship with Stallman, one of his key takeaways was: "RMS’s loss of MIT privileges and leadership of the FSF are the appropriate responses to a pattern of decades of poor behavior. It does not matter if they are appropriate responses to a single email thread, because the…

Bushnell authored GNU Hurd: "RMS: I am not very optimistic about the GNU HURD. It makes some progress, but to be really superior it would require solving a lot of deep problems. However, mainly what I think about the HURD is that finishing it is not crucial." https://redditblog.com/2010/07/29/rms-ama/ I think Bushnell makes some good points but: (1) he’s biased. (2) a Googler calling out Stallman is just rich (given…

> a Googler calling out Stallman

Isn't it stange that the other one calling out Stallman, Matthew Garret, is a Googler too?

Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#392

Post by mantoto »

strenholme wrote: post #327
input_sh wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [P]rostitution, adultery, necrophilia, bestiality, possession of child pornography, and even incest and pedophilia ... should be legal as long as no one is coerced. They are illegal only because of prejudice and narrowmindedness. June 28th 2003: http://stallman.org/archives/2003-may-aug.html > I am skeptical of the claim that voluntarily pedophilia harms children. The arguments that it causes harm seem to be based…

I mention this elsewhere in this sub-thread, but RMS was not completely out of line in 2003 or 2006 writing those kind of things. It was an era when it was still an open question whether the Wikipedia should have pro-pedophilia advocacy in their entries. For the record, I have never endorsed those positions [1], but I also see that they were on the fringe of acceptable discussion at the time. [1] See https://en.wikip…

Just because a few people where discussing this doesn't make it out of line. I remember 2003-2006 well enough. There was no discussion in society about this.

Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#393

Post by lostjohnny »

aonsager wrote: post #101
baron_harkonnen wrote: post #72

We are, sadly, entering a new age of conformity. Aligning yourself with what main stream society thinks is correct is now more important than anything else. The response of course is that "bad behavior should never be excused, regardless of ability!" which leads to a losing argument in which we try to say what kind of good excuses what kind of bad. But this presupposes the conformist stance: that fitting in with the…

Yes there is a benefit to radical thinking and nonconformity, but "do it without hurting others" is a reasonable line to draw. Stallman was viewed as a toxic individual who caused harm, and this is what our society is trying to weed out. I still believe, perhaps naively, that it's possible to maintain not-normal opinions without causing pain to the people around you. And this is something that everyone needs to do, w…

> I still believe, perhaps naively, that it's possible to maintain not-normal opinions without causing pain to the people around you

It depends on other people around you, too!

If people around me are scumbags and they get offended for reminding them what they are, I think it's alright.

Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#394

Post by mantoto »

baron_harkonnen wrote: post #72

We are, sadly, entering a new age of conformity. Aligning yourself with what main stream society thinks is correct is now more important than anything else. The response of course is that "bad behavior should never be excused, regardless of ability!" which leads to a losing argument in which we try to say what kind of good excuses what kind of bad. But this presupposes the conformist stance: that fitting in with the…

Wut? Not tolerating shitty behavior is now conformity?

Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#395

Post by dependenttypes »

oliyoung wrote: post #120
remarkEon wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine the world if Stallman had been excommunicated from tech after the first awkward/offensive interaction he had with someone. I sure wouldn’t. Tangentially: I better not see anyone here lionize Steve Jobs ever again, because he inflicted actual physical trauma on people. He didn’t just piss them off with his failure to recognize social cues.

Imagine the world where that person that didn't do the thing in tech because of an "awkward/offensive interaction" with Stallman did that thing. Imagine that multiplied by all the someones that didn't do any of the things that had an awkward/offensive interaction with Stallman did those things. These behaviours, ESPECIALLY by someone in such a influential position in our industry, have a chilling effect on every pers…

> Imagine the world where that person that didn't do the thing in tech because of an "awkward/offensive interaction" with Stallman did that thing.

It really seems like they are inflicting it on themselves though. Stallman is not a gatekeeper.

Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#396

Post by mantoto »

remarkEon wrote: post #121
floatingatoll wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“The first” is neither what has happened with Stallman, nor is it what I describe in my comment. Many incidents have occurred, enough to demonstrate that they’re a trend rather than “the first” one-off. Many folks have noted that most people in Stallman’s position would have chose to learn to be better people to those around them. He did not make that choice, and the result is that many stories told about him paint h…

>Many incidents have occurred, enough to demonstrate that they’re a trend rather than “the first” one-off. Are people deliberately ignoring the fact that his guy is mentally ill? You're ascribing neurotypical social requirements to someone who is demonstrably not capable of them, and then acting surprised when he breaches said decorum. >Please don’t use threats here; “I better not see anyone here [any action here]” h…

Do you think it is acceptable to put someone with mental illness in a Powerposition?

Do you think someone with a mental illness should've president of the USA? Wait...

Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#397

Post by lostjohnny »

strenholme wrote: post #382
dcolkitt wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes there is a benefit to radical thinking and nonconformity, but "do it without hurting others" is a reasonable line to draw. I'm trying to keep an open-mind here. But can anyone cite specific examples of a person that Stallman hurt in some way or another? And I'm willing to take a very liberal definition for "hurt" here. Because Stallman's "toxicity" keeps getting brought up again and again. Yet no specific insta…

There is a sexual harassment allegation from 1985: >>>When I was a teen freshman, I went to a buffet lunch at an Indian restaurant in Central Square with a graduate student friend and others from the AI lab. I don't know if he and I were the last two left, but at a table with only the two of us, Richard Stallman told me of his misery and that he'd kill himself if I didn't go out with him. I felt bad for him and also…

> > Richard Stallman told me of his misery and that he'd kill himself if I didn't go out with him. > I declined further contact.

This is not sexual harassment, there is no allegation, it was never filed.

This story was never confirmed, BTW.

But even if it happened, what's so bad about it?

That he's weird?

When it happened to me I offered support, I did not go to the police.

> but that the people in question do not want to come forward.

Stallman is not a well know powerful man that could pose a real danger to anybody.

He's not an Epstein that traffic girls.

> He made overt sexual advances to women at work [in the late 1990s at VA Linux

Who didn't in the 90s?

There were literally cocaine addicts running companies, snorting from their desks at the 24th floor in Manhattan and we are talking about Stallman making an alleged third hand advance?

Of course him being him, not Brad Pitt, and coming out weird when he tries to be friendly, scared women away.

Meanwhile the like of Epstein trafficked girls and were considered "highly respectable business men" because they dressed sharply, were good looking and moved a ton of money, the kind of money that could buy you an island.

While Stallman slept on a matress in his office .

It is hard to recall how bad the 90s were for those who never lived them, how bad the influence of the new born "global style industry" was and how not conforming to some social norm made you automatically an outcast.

There were movies like "Thrashin'" were the best skaters in the world (Caballero, Tony Hawk, Tony Alva) played the bad boys and the good guy of the time was Josh Brolin [1]

Now think about Josh Brolin in the 90s, the epitome of what a man should be according to showbiz industry targeting young people, and imagine being Richard Matthew Stallman.

Hell, there were even movies about nerds and they were all depicted as ugly, mean and with a bad hygiene.

Of course Snotty became my favourite!

[1] the good guy according to 80s and 90s culture http://ingridrichter.info/cheese/graphics/T/thrashin/brolin_...

Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#398

Post by lostjohnny »

mantoto wrote: post #394
baron_harkonnen wrote: post #72

We are, sadly, entering a new age of conformity. Aligning yourself with what main stream society thinks is correct is now more important than anything else. The response of course is that "bad behavior should never be excused, regardless of ability!" which leads to a losing argument in which we try to say what kind of good excuses what kind of bad. But this presupposes the conformist stance: that fitting in with the…

Wut? Not tolerating shitty behavior is now conformity?

We tolerate you calling out someone you don't know.

Should we not tolerate you for being shitty?

Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#399

Post by dredmorbius »

strenholme wrote: post #382
dcolkitt wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes there is a benefit to radical thinking and nonconformity, but "do it without hurting others" is a reasonable line to draw. I'm trying to keep an open-mind here. But can anyone cite specific examples of a person that Stallman hurt in some way or another? And I'm willing to take a very liberal definition for "hurt" here. Because Stallman's "toxicity" keeps getting brought up again and again. Yet no specific insta…

There is a sexual harassment allegation from 1985: >>>When I was a teen freshman, I went to a buffet lunch at an Indian restaurant in Central Square with a graduate student friend and others from the AI lab. I don't know if he and I were the last two left, but at a table with only the two of us, Richard Stallman told me of his misery and that he'd kill himself if I didn't go out with him. I felt bad for him and also…

Richard Stallman was never on VA Linux's board.

Eric Raymond was.

Gruber is quoting a third-party letter which appears to be unreliable.

Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#400

Post by glangdale »

asjw wrote: post #352
glangdale wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with your argument is that it implies that the people who were chased away from CSAIL, MIT or CS in general by people like Stallman were all planning to pile into a giant ineffective committee with each other and thus can be assumed to be No Great Loss, which is... a rather peculiar leap of logic. There's no reason to suppose this. Even accepting your logic, the people he discouraged from CS might have wo…

> people who were chased away from CSAIL, MIT or CS in general by people like Stallman Stallman never chased away anybody from CSAIL

I doubt he was the sole cause of someone leaving CSAIL or CS, but I've met plenty of women who were discouraged from CS by constant "weird dudes leering at my chest" or "constantly asking me for dates" etc. Based on the tales of his behavior the balance of probabilities are Not Good that he hasn't been at least partially responsible for some people deciding "well, maybe CS isn't for me".
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