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Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

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Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#381

Umm.... absolutely not. These quotes (directly from his site) beg to differ: > “I am sceptical of the claim that voluntarily pedophilia harms children. The arguments that it causes harm seem to be based on cases which aren’t voluntary, which are then stretched by parents who are horrified by the idea that their little baby is maturing.” > “There is little evidence to justify the widespread assumption that willing par…

So people are not free to say things other people may find stupid or ignorant? What if I thought that your comment was stupid and ignorant and had some power over your job position? Should I use this power then?

Bosses and stakeholders often hold their employees accountable for stupid and ignorant remarks. What is your argument here?

Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes there is a benefit to radical thinking and nonconformity, but "do it without hurting others" is a reasonable line to draw. Stallman was viewed as a toxic individual who caused harm, and this is what our society is trying to weed out. I still believe, perhaps naively, that it's possible to maintain not-normal opinions without causing pain to the people around you. And this is something that everyone needs to do, w…

> Yes there is a benefit to radical thinking and nonconformity, but "do it without hurting others" is a reasonable line to draw. I'm trying to keep an open-mind here. But can anyone cite specific examples of a person that Stallman hurt in some way or another? And I'm willing to take a very liberal definition for "hurt" here. Because Stallman's "toxicity" keeps getting brought up again and again. Yet no specific insta…

There is a sexual harassment allegation from 1985:

>>>When I was a teen freshman, I went to a buffet lunch at an Indian restaurant in Central Square with a graduate student friend and others from the AI lab. I don't know if he and I were the last two left, but at a table with only the two of us, Richard Stallman told me of his misery and that he'd kill himself if I didn't go out with him.

I felt bad for him and also uncomfortable and manipulated. I did not like being put in that position — suddenly responsible for an "important" man. What had I done to get into this situation? I decided I could not be responsible for his living or dying, and would have to accept him killing himself. I declined further contact.

He was not a man of his word or he'd be long dead.

Betsy S., Bachelor's in Management Science, '85Source: https://medium.com/@selamjie/remove-richard-stallman-appendi...

I have seen in this very same thread other people saying there are accusations, but that the people in question do not want to come forward.

Another secondhand (third-hand?) accusation of sexual harassment:

>>>He made overt sexual advances to women at work [in the late 1990s at VA Linux]. One young woman who worked next to me was so upset from his multiple advances that she took it to senior management. She was able to deal with the problem without taking the issue outside the company. I don’t know the details, but she was given advanced warning anytime Stallman was headed over so that she could leave.Source: https://daringfireball.net/2019/09/richard_stallmans_disgrac...

Personally, I still stay it was a witch hunt to force Stallman to resign, but if there were substantial sexual harassment allegations from this century [1] and a reasonably fair hearing, I would consider it fair to make him go.

[1] This will make me a heretic among some #MeToo advocates, but I think sexual harassment allegations need to have a reasonable statue of limitations. I don’t think people should be dragged through the mud for something they did 20, 30, 40, or even 50 years ago. [2] [3] [4]

[2] Tom Brokaw was dragged through the mud for allegedly sexually harassing two women over 20 years ago, as well as trying to kiss a woman (who was not his wife, but that bit doesn’t generally matter with the #MeToo crowd) over 50 years ago.

[3] Nolan Bushnell was dragged through the mud for supposedly having a hostile work environment at Atari over 40 years ago, but not one women who worked at Atari when Bushnell led it has come forward to complain, and multiple women who were there, including Loni Reeder, came forward and said Bushnell was very kind and inclusive towards women.

[4] Within reason. Many jurisdictions do not have a statute of limitations for rape; but asking someone out on a date when they are not interested is very different from sexual assault.

Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damn, he actually wrote that under his real name? That was unwise. I wouldn't even say that as Mirimir. Except about prostitution and adultery, of course.

There was also one that I can't be bothered to find that goes something along the lines of "teens sext each other, therefore child pornography should be legal".

Well, there was that recent case about the tween girl who got convicted of distributing child pornography for sexting another tween.

So it's obvious to me that underage sexting itself shouldn't be prosecuted as child porn. Because if they're old enough to prosecute as adults, they're also old enough to legally share naked pictures of themselves.

But of course, it's arguable that third parties -- especially adult third parties -- who distribute such images should be prosecuted.

Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#384
post #355

So where are the blogs defending him written by all the women there were included in his culture of tolerance? I would upvote that!

Even if women who worked with him feel that way, you are highly unlikely to see such.

Women are generally more vulnerable than men. Other women will tear apart a "traitor" to the feminist cause. Defending someone who is the focus of a metaphorical lynch mob almost never helps them and frequently means you are next.

Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#385
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And here [0] is someone else who (by his own accord) worked with both RMS and Bushnell and is saying Bushnell is bullshitting and grinding an axe: [0] https://mobile.twitter.com/thomas_lord/status/11744336549420... > Bushnell and I overlapped in our employment at FSF. ... The general culture of inclusiveness and tolerance that RMS fostered meant that, at least when I was there alongside Bushnell, that social circle i…

Bushnell calls himself a "social justice warrior". These exact words. And in my experience, he's lived up to the common meaning of that phrase. Does this behavior affect how you should regard Bushnell's recent article? Make up your own mind.

Glad to know he's part of your outgroup.

Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#386
post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if there was a group of mostly autistic/aspie men and they felt unsafe around one neurotypical woman, she should be the one to lose her position at a university Yes, if her behaviour was not workplace appropriate.

That's a different question. None of the stories about Stallman are from coworkers. They are from people who shared meals with him, people who attended talks he gave, or people who went to his office. In his position at MIT, Stallman did not teach classes. Anyone who didn't like his behavior was free to tell him off and/or leave. They would suffer zero consequences to their career or schooling. Also, I replied to som…

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Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#387

We are, sadly, entering a new age of conformity. Aligning yourself with what main stream society thinks is correct is now more important than anything else. The response of course is that "bad behavior should never be excused, regardless of ability!" which leads to a losing argument in which we try to say what kind of good excuses what kind of bad. But this presupposes the conformist stance: that fitting in with the…

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Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#388
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He’s autistic. Suddenly the people who were annoyingly vocal about being “inclusive” are forgetting Stallman’s disability. He says “creepy” things because he doesn’t understand social cues or casual communication at a certain level. Everyone in this thread demonizing RMS should be ashamed of themselves. This is the same reason why he can’t hold a relationship, or why he sleeps in his office. He’s just far out there -…

If you have a condition where you have trouble interacting socially with people, while also running an influential organization and acting as its figurehead, you need to be able to mitigate these issues. If this means you have an assistant who you run emails by before sending them, so be it. If your assistant also takes a look at your office (given to you as a favor by a respected educational institution) and tells y…

Allow me to substitute autism for a different handicap and see if you still agree:

If you have a condition where you have trouble not swearing, while also running an influential organization and acting as its figurehead, you need to be able to mitigate these issues. If this means you have an assistant who you run emails by before sending them, so be it. If female colleagues are putting plants in their offices because they know you don't like plants and it will deter you from visiting them, you either need to recognize that on your own and do something about it, or allow a trusted someone to help you fix the situation. tourettes isn't an excuse for bad behavior. It can explain some bad behavior, but that bad behavior cannot continue over decades; it must be dealt with in some manner.

Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#389
post #343
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bushnell* writes a very reasonable piece. It deals with a number of issues with Stallman as a leader of the FSF and MIT and suggests Stallman is unlikely to come back to either of those institutions. But he doesn't deal with what the big problem here is - the way this was done is concerning. Stallman wasn't forced to resign by people like him - who are quite happy to say "Look, Stallman, you've dedicated your life to…

Stallman resigned in the face of people who had always known who he was being faced with the reality that the rest of the world also knew. The motivation wasn't the misquotes of his already abhorrent argument. (source: former FSF board member)

source: Google employee. FTFY!

That Google, the Ad company threatening user's privacy, abusing user's rights, collecting user's data.

The company fined for 5 billion dollars in an anti trust case in EU.

The company behind YouTube, fined for 170 million dollars for collecting kids data [1]

The company behind Chrome, that recently proposed a change to stop ad blocking extensions from working (did I say they sell ads?)

AFAIK Stallman never worked for or at any company the like of Google.

Neither did Eben Moglen, who still offers pro bono legal support for free software at the Freedom law center, which he founded.

For those that do not know him, Moglen was member of Philip Zimmermann's (PGP creator) defense team.

Strangely enough, he was another target of Garret, a couple years ago he declared him "no longer a friend of the FSF".

He was already working for Google.

[1] https://variety.com/2019/digital/news/youtube-ftc-fine-170-m...

Re: Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him

#390
post #376
post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stallman resigned in the face of people who had always known who he was being faced with the reality that the rest of the world also knew. The motivation wasn't the misquotes of his already abhorrent argument. (source: former FSF board member)

Why do you consider his argument abhorrent before it was misquoted?

maybe because without Stallman and with a weaker FSF foundation Google, where he works, will benefit even more...
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