Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia • Hacker News Board

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#391

Post by PeterisP » Sun, Nov 11, 2018, 1:38 AM UTC

illumin8 wrote: post #198

mrb wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

« that permission can be revoked instantly, silently, and invisibly at any time » Yes, "permission" is the right vocabulary to use in this instance. In fact, the opposite, being "permissionless", is exactly one of the main selling points of cryptocurrencies: no authority can prevent a user from sending or receiving bitcoins, or ether, etc. This is why cryptocurrencies should be seen as competing with cash, and not wi…

The term I like to use is "censorship resistant." Bitcoin and most other cryptocurrencies have this property. The idea is that no central authority can censor your right to spend money.

On the other hand, all the major central authorities have asserted that they do have the right to censor how the residents of their jurisdiction spend money, so they consider that any payment system that's truly censorship resistant and anonymous must be prevented from interacting with the wider economy unless it surrenders these properties.

I.e. the requirement to report all large cash transactions and prevent anonymity in such deals; the 'know your customer' requirement for cryptocurrency exchanges, etc. Even if your "money" is censorship resistant, transacting with a legitimate business can't be, since all legitimate businesses can be (and are) required to censor certain transactions; and if a particular "kind of money" makes it impossible to distinguish them, then it may well be that these businesses will (or will have to) simply censor the whole "kind of money".

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#392

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Nov 11, 2018, 1:40 AM UTC

Casseres wrote: post #126

StavrosK wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't necessarily need a connection. It can work just as well with a QR code signature that the recipient uses later to broadcast the transaction.

Without the network, another recipient wouldn't know about that transaction and thus be susceptible to a double-spend, right?

[deleted]

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#393

Post by chrismcb » Sun, Nov 11, 2018, 1:41 AM UTC

gsich wrote: post #287

felipemnoa wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've noticed this with mature technology. There comes a point where a product is perfect, no need to add anymore features. But the manufacturer still wants to continue adding new features so that they can use those as new selling points. Unfortunately the new features end up making the product worse.

Smartphones today.

Smart phones today have a long way to go before they come even close to perfect

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#394

Post by phiresky » Sun, Nov 11, 2018, 1:41 AM UTC

cf498 wrote: post #383

I was really shocked when i experienced the same issue in the Netherlands. I went there for a conference and only had to go straight to Amsterdam central, to science park and to my hotel in almere central. I had to exit Amsterdam central station by scanning in the QR code of my paper ticket. The alarm at that station was ringing constantly because of all the foreign tourists who had no idea what to do. Outside I had…

> The same applied to every supermarket but one near my hotel.

I've been able to pay everywhere I've been to in the Netherlands with a normal European debit card with chip + pin (Maestro I think)

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#395

Post by chrismcb » Sun, Nov 11, 2018, 1:44 AM UTC

bamboozled wrote: post #135

eksemplar wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s festival payment done wrong, but cashless can be really great at festivals. In Denmark we have a festival called Skanderborg festival, and they build both your ticket and your cashless payment into the festival bracelet. You use the bracelet to pay everywhere, and you can add money to it a range of payment methods, from using a visa or similar in their app, to visiting one of the cash places where you can use…

The best payment experience I’ve had is cash. I pay for what I need and when I leave the festival I can still use my “credits” hassle free anywhere I like.

As much as I enjoy using cash, it isn't the best method. You have to carry it. You have to carry the change. The store had to have enough change. The store had to keep the pile of cash, and keep it safe. Then transfer it to my the bank at the end of the day or week or whatever. If you run out of cash on you, you have to figure out how to get more Cash had some nice features, like it is fairly anonymous. But it is far from perfect.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#396

Post by Symbiote » Sun, Nov 11, 2018, 1:46 AM UTC

plufz wrote: post #292

kristofferR wrote: post #97

I'm a Norwegian who went to a Swedish music festival last summer. I couldn't pay for a lot of things there, since the booths only accepted Swish (the only relevant Swedish mobile payment solution, it's a de facto monopoly). I couldn't sign up and use Swish on my phone, since it only accepts Swedish bank accounts. I couldn't borrow money from my Swedish friends either, since they didn't have cash (and it mostly wasn't…

Atleast 99% of my payments in sweden are with a totally normal credit card, the rest with swish. I only use paper money to give to homeless people, can’t remember when I bought something with bills and coins. I think it’s great, I’m more worried about tax evasion than my government knowing what I buy. I’m more interested in my speech being free than my purchases, even though I can see the problem in non-functioning d…

Just today I went to a concert in Malmø where the bar is cash only. This is a medium sized place.

You can withdraw cash by credit card at the ticket desk, to take to the bar and pay for drinks. It's annoying for people like me, occasional visitors from Denmark.

I don't know why they don't have the chip and pin terminal at the bar.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#397

Post by kps » Sun, Nov 11, 2018, 1:48 AM UTC

Camillo wrote: post #390

felipemnoa wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've noticed this with mature technology. There comes a point where a product is perfect, no need to add anymore features. But the manufacturer still wants to continue adding new features so that they can use those as new selling points. Unfortunately the new features end up making the product worse.

2015 MacBook Pro was the peak for laptops.

2009 was the last time they sold a 17″ version.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#398

Post by cf498 » Sun, Nov 11, 2018, 1:50 AM UTC

phiresky wrote: post #394

cf498 wrote: post #383

I was really shocked when i experienced the same issue in the Netherlands. I went there for a conference and only had to go straight to Amsterdam central, to science park and to my hotel in almere central. I had to exit Amsterdam central station by scanning in the QR code of my paper ticket. The alarm at that station was ringing constantly because of all the foreign tourists who had no idea what to do. Outside I had…

> The same applied to every supermarket but one near my hotel. I've been able to pay everywhere I've been to in the Netherlands with a normal European debit card with chip + pin (Maestro I think)

I gave them my Visa and V-Pay card, and only one of the patrol stations took it.

Everyone else willing to take my non Netherland card were places who would also take cash, like mcdonalds.

There seemed to have been a certain kind of regional card which i did not have.

edit: dont take me wrong, i should have looked up the local payment procedure before going there, I was just extremely surprised as this happened to me directly across the border inside the EU.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#399

Post by antidesitter » Sun, Nov 11, 2018, 1:58 AM UTC

mamon wrote: post #172

mrb wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

« Until you realize that >90% of Bitcoin hashing power is controlled by a handful of Chinese guys » It's false. You are repeating a sadly misunderstood aspect of pooled mining. Articles writing such sensationalist claims are written by people who don't understand that a mining pool representing x% of the hash rate doesn't mean they "control" x% of the hash rate. Their end-users, who are distributed around the world,…

>> users around the world would abandon it and point their miners at more trustworthy pools. This is not as easy as you try to paint it, because mining requires hardware, and you can't just move it around the world at will - most of it is physically located in China, and that's not gonna change.

Do you have statistics for Bitcoin mining hardware by country?

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#400

Post by sundvor » Sun, Nov 11, 2018, 1:59 AM UTC

kristofferR wrote: post #97

I'm a Norwegian who went to a Swedish music festival last summer. I couldn't pay for a lot of things there, since the booths only accepted Swish (the only relevant Swedish mobile payment solution, it's a de facto monopoly). I couldn't sign up and use Swish on my phone, since it only accepts Swedish bank accounts. I couldn't borrow money from my Swedish friends either, since they didn't have cash (and it mostly wasn't…

That sounds painful.

I'm a Norwegian in Australia.

We've got Paypass / Paywave just about everywhere here. With Samsung Pay supporting both, I don't bring my wallet out most days. I'm sure a lot of the readers support Apple Pay as well.

Of course we can still use cash if we want to, but tapping is just easy these days.