Sweden brings back military conscription • Hacker News Board

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#391

Post by fjdlwlv » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 2:36 AM UTC

entropyneur wrote: post #246

ocschwar wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As others have pointed out, if the nation state you live in does not have a secure hold on its territory, then you can either lose some of your freedom to conscription, or lose a whole lot more in foreign occupation.

> lose a whole lot more in foreign occupation I don't think that's the case in modern times. Unless you believe Russia (that's what we are talking about here, right?) would enslave swedes or subject them to genocide this argument doesn't work.

The modern leader of Russia was an active member of the government of "pre-modern" Russia that slaughtered millions of its own citizens.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#392

Post by maverick_iceman » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 3:09 AM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #6

How do you motivate a conscript? When I was in the British Army, which is volunteer only, commanding a basic training troop if someone was wanted to give up we could say to them 'if this isn't for you then you can go home' (of course we did coach and mentor people to help them, I mean in cases where people just give up and stop soldiering when an exercise gets tough). They usually worked extremely hard to get into th…

Firing squad?

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#393

Post by gspetr » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 3:40 AM UTC

brilliantcode wrote: post #343

gspetr wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If he wanted a buffer he could have easily taken over Ukraine in the fall of 2014 and spring of 2015. Both times the rebels routed Ukrainian army and the road to Kiev was essentially clear. Reinstalling the puppet president would have been easy. Not to mention that during the coup itself there were reports of Ukrainian generals sending envoys to Moscow, seeking aid and patronage to throw a counter coup and either rei…

RussiaToday is a poor source.

Yes, go ahead and resort to stereotypes.

RT is external propaganda, TV is the main instrument of internal propaganda.

Very few Russians use that as their information source, even pro-regime ones.

This is tantamount to Americans citing this as their source of domestic news:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_of_America

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#394

Post by anticodon » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 3:42 AM UTC

brilliantcode wrote: post #205

anticodon wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As Russian I don't agree. I don't watch TV and read news (other than HN and a couple of other sites where I try to avoid politics as much as I can), but why the hell do we need these Baltic states? What do they have that Russia needs? Territory, natural resources? Nothing. I don't know the real motivation for annexing Crimea, but making a conclusion: first they take Crimea, then they're going to take Sweden and Balti…

Putin wants to revive USSR without any of it's benefits but all of it's power & resources available to him. He might get his way-we have a "Gorbachev" in the White House or a KGB asset.

Are you sure you really know that Putin wants to revive USSR? Did he personally announced this goal? Or you're quoting CNN or some other media?

This is typical political fearmongering. There're many reasons to create a fear-inducing stories: "Bad Russians are going to take our land and they replaced our president with a puppet. We must unite and buy more guns!".

Relax, nobody wants to take Sweden. It also wasn't ever a part of USSR or even pre-USSR Russia.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#395

Post by anticodon » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 3:45 AM UTC

brilliantcode wrote: post #219

gspetr wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Full disclosure: I am Russian. Even Belarus and Kazakhstan don't really want to join, forget about the rest ex-USSR countries. Taking countries by force makes even less sense - there do not exist resources or territory that make it profitable enough to offset military spending and new rounds of economic sanctions.

it gives political momentum-as did Hitler's blitzkrieg in Poland Military wise you buy large buffer between US ground & air forces based around there.

Hitler needed war to solve economical problems. He was desperate for money and resources. All wars has strong economical reasons.

For Russia there's no economical reasons to invade Sweden or Baltic states or Kazakhstan. This even sounds funny. There would be no political or economical benefits. It's a propaganda by the western media.

P.S. Actually there's a lot more reasons to invade Kazakhstan than Sweden. There're a lot of natural resources in Kazakhstan.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#396

Post by dogma1138 » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 5:21 AM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #29

zmb_ wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>'if this isn't for you then you can go home' I did compulsory military service, including in a leadership role. "If you don't do what you're told, you don't get go home next weekend." Worked very well for conscripts, who usually get to go home for many weekends (unless on exercises). There are also many smaller privileges you can take a way for smaller infractions. Although when you have a defensive military that do…

A credible deterrent in 2020 is not 200k dudes with guns. It's air and naval power. Expensive and complex hi tech death machines. Of course, a 10m country will never have a really credible defense against nuclear super power Russia by itself.

Don't underestimate what a defensive force fighting on their own turf can achieve.

Not to mention that European defensive doctrine is to hold on until allies can be rallied.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#397

Post by dogma1138 » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 5:22 AM UTC

pilsetnieks wrote: post #145

zmb_ wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 200k dudes with guns Conscript military doesn't mean that you just teach everyone to dig a hole and sit in it with a rifle. You train conscripts into every role you need in a 200k strong modern military. Including operators and maintainers of the hi-tech death machines, sigint operatives, radar operators, tank crews, missile forces, officers of all kinds, and yes, the guys that dig holes and sit in them with rifles…

You literally cannot use conscripts for anything of "operators and maintainers of the hi-tech death machines, sigint operatives, radar operators, tank crews, missile forces, officers." First of all, most of them take at least a year to get up to speed, if not more, and they have to maintain their competence. You cannot just release a conscript after his year long stint, and call him up ten years later - the ten year…

Israel.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#398

Post by ptaipale » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 5:43 AM UTC

seppin wrote: post #108

_lbaq wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last war: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish–Norwegian_War_(1814) So +200 years without war and counting

I don't get why people hold this up as an accomplishment. The world has been at war several times and Sweden has fought only a few times on small scales. When you building is on fire, but your are safe in your flat, it's not a moral decision to lock your door and goto sleep for the night.

Actually, until Napoleonic wars, Sweden was pretty much in a constant state of war. For instance, my great-grandfather in 12th generation (then a Swedish subject in Östprovinsen, now known as Finland) earned himself a little manor house (tax-exempt and all that) by spending a couple of decades in the Thirty Years War pillaging Prague and other places.

Well, many others were also warring a lot then, but the change was quite abrupt in Sweden, and then the country even managed to stay out of WWI and WWII.

Of course, in Cold War it was actually operating with the U.S. but the war was not, well, hot.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#399

Post by entropyneur » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 6:19 AM UTC

clock_tower wrote: post #327

entropyneur wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never argued with #1. And you are wrong on #2. My way promotes our civilization, theirs is just an echo of the civilizations of the past.

Which sort of civilization is Donald Trump a part of, our civilization or one of those of the past?

We are now all a part of a single modern civilization. Some people (including Trump and his supporters) simply don't realize it yet.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#400

Post by entropyneur » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 6:24 AM UTC

fjdlwlv wrote: post #389

entropyneur wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but the difference between them is nowhere close to the difference between slavery and freedom or life and death.

The Russian government has killed more of its own citizens than any war has.

I am a card-carrying "russophobe" and I don't have a faintest idea of what you are talking about. Stalin? Then you can make the same statement about German government, but it's not very useful. Chechen wars? But those were actually wars. I am out of ideas at this point.