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Barely Half of 30-Year-Olds in the U.S. Earn More Than Their Parents Did at 30

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Re: Barely Half of 30-Year-Olds in the U.S. Earn More Than Their Parents Did at 30

#391
post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We are taught that a very achievable ideal is a middle class existence with one parent working I'm pushing 40 (upbringing: United States, middle class, medium-sized city) and have never, ever heard of this dream of a single-income household.

Where did you grow up? I'm more than a decade younger than you and grew up in a single income family, lots of children, solidly middle class, and neither of my parents had beyond a high school education. My dad was a straight C student through school and neither of my parents could help me with my math homework by the time I was in junior high...so hard working people, but not book smart by any means. Lots and lots o…

Northwestern Pennsylvania. Rust belt, Great Lakes region.

Anecdotally, more than half of my peers had both parents working. My mother and both grandmothers had jobs. The attitude was that two incomes are better than one in an age of economic uncertainty - an era that kicked in no later than the 70s.

Re: Barely Half of 30-Year-Olds in the U.S. Earn More Than Their Parents Did at 30

#392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People feel a natural obligation to be rewarded for their work. "Don't work, don't eat". The fact is, giving people a small income makes them inherently lazy. Lazy people don't like to work, but they will do just enough to get by, so if you give them a min amount of $, they'll do nothing. Others will look at that and say, "How come they get money for being lazy?" It actually acts as demotivation for people who would…

> The fact is, giving people a small income makes them inherently lazy. No it doesn't. Why do you think it does?

Why do you think it doesn't? If I'm getting a free hand-out, I don't need to work as hard to get the necessities, which is why I go to work in the first place.

Re: Barely Half of 30-Year-Olds in the U.S. Earn More Than Their Parents Did at 30

#393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People feel a natural obligation to be rewarded for their work. "Don't work, don't eat". The fact is, giving people a small income makes them inherently lazy. Lazy people don't like to work, but they will do just enough to get by, so if you give them a min amount of $, they'll do nothing. Others will look at that and say, "How come they get money for being lazy?" It actually acts as demotivation for people who would…

> The guy who isn't making much to begin with isn't rewarded - it only makes his labor less valuable. What? How does that make any sense? The labor market is a market because supply and demand still apply.

His labor from his point of view, not from the economy's point of view. Certainly labor from him is good for the economy. But for him, he already has what he needs, so there's not as much incentive to get more. Sure, there will always be people who want more, but they may pursue alternatives to [what I'd call] standard, ethical labor in order to gain those ends.

Re: Barely Half of 30-Year-Olds in the U.S. Earn More Than Their Parents Did at 30

#394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People feel a natural obligation to be rewarded for their work. "Don't work, don't eat". The fact is, giving people a small income makes them inherently lazy. Lazy people don't like to work, but they will do just enough to get by, so if you give them a min amount of $, they'll do nothing. Others will look at that and say, "How come they get money for being lazy?" It actually acts as demotivation for people who would…

> People feel a natural obligation to be rewarded for their work ... If people are actively demotivated by seeing others idle and surviving, who cares? Provided that we as a society can afford basic income (including after it's been established and it's having various impacts on the workforce), it's no loss if people stop working. And there's only so much basic income could ever give you; it'll make the necessities o…

I guess our ideas of how it would be implemented are different. Let's consider it from a practical perspective. What's the basic level of income? Right now, minimum wage helps some people (where cost of living is low) and not others (where cost of living is high), so asking this quantitatively, how much would you propose basic income be, assuming the dollar stays put? Of course, we have to get Congress to even pass such measures in a way that actually helps society, but let's ignore the government problem for our theorizing.

Second, what do you project would be future salaries? I know, that's very difficult to say, but let's toy with the idea since it's important that such salaries have an impact on whether people actually step out into the workplace... or if the sorts of jobs available are even something they can do.

Third, exactly where does this money come from? The rich have money, but it's awfully hard to get them to part with it. They're usually crafty enough to manipulate the system. The government can't keep printing money (without taking it out) because that makes it worthless. Money doesn't just magically appear when the economy "gets going". Let's not assume imports are going to decrease (at least not for this theorizing, even if Trump gets his way), or at least we should pretend that imports and exports balance out. I say this assuming that we might apply Basic Income at a global level, at which point "import" and "export" become meaningless. Money can't just cycle because the fact is, some people are in control of the resource supply and others aren't. On a small, small level, capitalism is like this: If we have two people, Mr A and Mr B, and Mr A has the resource supply, the way Mr B gets anything is if he works for Mr A, and Mr A pays him for the resources. Basic Income at this level would be taking from Mr A to give to Mr B some small, but significant amount, for just existing. Does Mr A get a stipend/basic income? And supposing Mr B works more. I wonder at what point would Mr B become like Mr A where he gets taxed more. Already we've seen companies move their headquarters to places like Singapore to avoid the heavy corporate taxing. I have no doubt that the rich (who can afford to move) will be glad to leave this country to find havens where their wealth is unaffected but from which they can still suck the wealth of other nations. Taxing laws here are critical because there are usually loopholes to get around it.

Fourth, how would this look with immigration? Seems - just from my observations - a number of liberals would like both immigration and things like Basic Income. These ideas seem opposed to me, since immigration doesn't necessarily bring much wealth, as it's often the poor who immigrate (assuming no wars or famine and such that drive people from their homeland, and those could be factored in, at least with Basic Income on a national scale). (I'm ignoring here, the fraction of people who immigrate just 'cause they like the country).

I await your thoughts.

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