Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer” • Hacker News Board

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#391

Post by wpietri » Fri, Sep 09, 2016, 4:12 AM UTC

mod wrote: post #123

Swizec wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you can have this entire conversation without bringing up that they're a woman Exactly! Talk to them like they're a person. It's not that hard. You'd be surprised how refreshing women find it when you talk to them like they're a person, not a "woman". At least based on what they've told me when I took that approach. Maybe they lied ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ The idea is that you treat them like people, not like a bag of stereotypes…

But this is on a thread titled "Ask a Female Engineer!" I'm with you, treat 'em like they're people. And quit distinguishing them as different, like TFA.

To me, treating people like means paying close attention to what they have to say about their lives. Like it or not, some kinds of visible difference have a major effect on people's lives because of how others treat them.

We are slowing emerging from millennia of patriarchy. Insisting on pretending otherwise doesn't sound like treating people as people to me. It sounds like insisting that they conform to your expectations, which I think is pretty much the opposite of treating them as people.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#392

Post by stale2002 » Fri, Sep 09, 2016, 4:14 AM UTC

jshevek wrote: post #352

stale2002 wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you should talk to some women engineers sometime and get their opinion. Because I have spoken to a lot of them, and read about many of their experiences. And the vast majority of them say the same thing. That they have to deal with serious problems that their male counterparts do not. And just because other people have things worse, doesn't mean that other important problems don't exist.

I've also spoken to a lot of them, and the majority (of them) completely disagree with you. Maybe both of our sets of women engineers involve some selection bias? Regardless, I find this... > Maybe you should talk to some women engineers sometime and get their opinion. ... and the implication that you have enough information to conclude that the parent simply _could not_ have already talked to women engineers - and t…

I don't know what to tell you man. We can just look at the article. Or any of the posts in this thread that claim to be from a woman.

Every post from the article seems to support my claim and not yours. Thats only N= 4 or 5, but thats still something.

"and the implication that you have enough information to conclude that the parent simply _could not_ have already talked to women engineers "

Yes, this is indeed my implication. That he could not have possibly already talked to very many women.

I would say the same thing if someone were to claim "Racism in America is over!"

Such a person who makes this claim has clearly not talked to very many black people, or hasn't listened to them.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#393

Post by wpietri » Fri, Sep 09, 2016, 4:18 AM UTC

Red_Tarsius wrote: post #106

houselouse wrote: post #19

> Invite women you work with for coffee No chance of this being misinterpreted. Invite women you work with for coffee and ask what they like or dislike about their day-to-day. If they mention concerns or problems they’re having, ask if there’s any way you could help make it better.

I appreciate the effort put into these interviews, but most of the advice might be a short cut to HR and office drama. This kid gloves attitude sounds condescending and forced. I don't care about the gender of my peers and that should be enough . Otherwise, you're just expecting a special treatment. Female peers never had any issue with me. They know my friendliness is genuine, not a political effort.

> I don't care about the gender of my peers and that should be enough.

Not caring about their gender is awesome. You know what's not awesome? Refusing to accept that other people who do care might have had a big impact on their lives.

> Female peers never had any issue with me.

Well, they have never admitted any issue to you. It could be that they have no issues. Or it could be that they've put you in the category of "person not worth talking honestly with." Given that you have a strong aversion to what you see as "special treatment" and they might see as "fair treatment", I could see why someone might be inclined to flip the bozo bit. [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bozo_bit#Dismissing_a_person_a...

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#394

Post by bjourne » Fri, Sep 09, 2016, 4:25 AM UTC

wrsh07 wrote: post #43

houselouse wrote: post #19

> Invite women you work with for coffee No chance of this being misinterpreted. Invite women you work with for coffee and ask what they like or dislike about their day-to-day. If they mention concerns or problems they’re having, ask if there’s any way you could help make it better.

Ask everyone you work with for coffee. Please don't omit the women. I've mentored new hires, and in that context it's easy to say, "hey can we get tea and talk about how the first few weeks have been?"

What about asking no one? :) Some of us prefers to drink our coffee by ourselves.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#395

Post by PavlovsCat » Fri, Sep 09, 2016, 4:25 AM UTC

RodericDay wrote: post #373

PavlovsCat wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, it implies you think It does none of the sort. It correctly points out a double standard in supposed progressive culture and that's it. As for "clubs": > "Putting on a man-tailored suit with shoulder pads and imitating all the worst behavior of men? This is the noblest thing that women can think of?" -- George Carlin But hey, what good old George surely didn't realize (being such a sexist as he was who wou…

You really got caught up in your rant, but nothing up there in my post is a defense of said clubs. I'm not a fan of them, and my post wasn't about them. The fact that two wrongs don't make a right is taken so, so far by some reactionary people, that they basically end up pretending that the first wrong is blown out of proportion or doesn't really exist. Which is exactly what that poster implicitly revealed by offerin…

> You really got caught up in your rant

You may not have defended it, but you also didn't criticize it. So I added that, like draping garlic about, to increase the safety of this space.

> The fact that two wrongs don't make a right is taken so, so far by some reactionary people, that they basically end up pretending that the first wrong is blown out of proportion or doesn't really exist.

I know that, and I resent that as well. But I see nothing in the comment you replied to to indicate that at all, they probably weren't thinking of ALL kinds of groups that exist, but merely advocacy ones etc. I don't know, but why presume either way on this little data? You basically said the poster implied "exactly" that they are reactionary and in denial. Maybe you two have history, but this is a really odd style of discussion to me.

> Which is exactly what that poster implicitly revealed by offering up that thought experiment. Imagine men saying to women "you are not welcome here". Yeah. Imagine.

Yeah, we don't have to imagine it, and "we" for any given "we" know how we react to it in what we consider polite company. Hence the same reaction to girls clubs, at least where it crosses the line from immediate safe space and support to political outlook and whatnot.

In that sense, there is kind of a double standard, there are plenty of people who find that benign or even cute when women do it, but would instantly recognize it for what it is in other contexts. Hence an allergic reaction to anything that might contain it and doesn't contain proof it doesn't. I guess your reply was kind of similar, assuming an reactionary outlook of a specific type based on very little.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#396

Post by QuarterReptile » Fri, Sep 09, 2016, 4:30 AM UTC

mbfg wrote: post #378

tomc1985 wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A casual, "Hey I'm going to lunch, care to join?" works well with my colleagues. Usually they decline, to which one can reply, "Ok, have fun. See you in an hour"

i would never, ever ask another man out for lunch or coffee, just as i would never ever ask a woman out for lunch or coffee, and would equally decline if was asked. Work doesn't need to be about buddies. work is about work. That's why you have a personal life. keep the two separate. corollary #1: dear manager. I am not your friend, you are not my friend. i will never be your friend. Chances are i don't like you at al…

I'm guessing your way is most applicable when working a relatively low number of hours, like 35-40 weekly. Once you start pushing into 80-100 hours at work each week, being friendly starts to make more sense, if only to avoid going crazy from isolation.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#397

Post by natrius » Fri, Sep 09, 2016, 4:33 AM UTC

generic_user wrote: post #302

natrius wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the author's defense, being a member of a certain identity group isn't great training for giving good advice about interacting with that group. If the prerequisite for talking about identity issues is being right all the time, no one's ever going to talk.

Identity politics is designed to be divisive. Its used to atomize people into identity silos which can then have there interactions policed by busybodies who know the right way we should all interact with each other.

Humans are divisive. We discriminate in all sorts of ways (positive and negative), and that discrimination becomes part of our culture. It's natural. If we don't talk about how our biases affect our interactions, the kinds of people who have historically gotten screwed by biases are going to keep getting screwed.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#398

Post by PavlovsCat » Fri, Sep 09, 2016, 4:34 AM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #392

jshevek wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've also spoken to a lot of them, and the majority (of them) completely disagree with you. Maybe both of our sets of women engineers involve some selection bias? Regardless, I find this... > Maybe you should talk to some women engineers sometime and get their opinion. ... and the implication that you have enough information to conclude that the parent simply _could not_ have already talked to women engineers - and t…

I don't know what to tell you man. We can just look at the article. Or any of the posts in this thread that claim to be from a woman. Every post from the article seems to support my claim and not yours. Thats only N= 4 or 5, but thats still something. "and the implication that you have enough information to conclude that the parent simply _could not_ have already talked to women engineers " Yes, this is indeed my imp…

> Yes, this is indeed my implication. That he could not have possibly already talked to very many women.

Wait, me? Heh. That proves, as a matter of fact, that you don't know shit about me.

> I would say the same thing if someone were to claim "Racism in America is over!"

Except I didn't make any such declaration, I said what I actually said, and you deflected from those actual words by fantasizing about me based on a straw man. I didn't say everything is fair for women, I say there is way bigger unfairness on other levels, up to murder and carpet bombing, and I know plenty of intelligent strong women who exactly zero problems not only realizing that, they'd feel insulted if I didn't assume they know that. I mean, geez.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#399

Post by taneq » Fri, Sep 09, 2016, 4:40 AM UTC

kaybe wrote: post #250

debacle wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I encountered this just yesterday. Interviewed a lovely woman with a gender neutral name and a fantastic resume that I assumed was a man before getting on the phone with her. She turned out to be just as good as she looked on paper, and I'm certainly looking forward to hiring her. I feel like gender only matters to the kind of people that gender matters to (tautologies are cool).

It would be nice if implicit biases and subconscious prejudices just went away if we started to ignore them.

It'd also be nice if we could decide each case on its merits without being accused of implicit biases and subconscious prejudices if our decision doesn't align with what's currently ordained as "progressive".

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#400

Post by RodericDay » Fri, Sep 09, 2016, 5:14 AM UTC

PavlovsCat wrote: post #395

RodericDay wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really got caught up in your rant, but nothing up there in my post is a defense of said clubs. I'm not a fan of them, and my post wasn't about them. The fact that two wrongs don't make a right is taken so, so far by some reactionary people, that they basically end up pretending that the first wrong is blown out of proportion or doesn't really exist. Which is exactly what that poster implicitly revealed by offerin…

> You really got caught up in your rant You may not have defended it, but you also didn't criticize it. So I added that, like draping garlic about, to increase the safety of this space. > The fact that two wrongs don't make a right is taken so, so far by some reactionary people, that they basically end up pretending that the first wrong is blown out of proportion or doesn't really exist. I know that, and I resent tha…

funny you find my style odd. I find your weird professorial affectation over pretty standard anti-feminist fare really off-putting myself. it's like you've read a million posts about "sjws" and are trying really hard to pretend like you haven't. "we" for any given "we" - c'mon dude.

anyway,

- "we" know how we react to it in what we consider polite company

- plenty of people who find that benign or even cute when women [discriminate]

- I guess your reply was kind of similar, assuming an reactionary outlook of a specific type based on very little.

It seems like your "polite company" is very outspoken about condemning what they imagine is distant and cartoonish sexism, and yet they have no problem characterizing women organizing as "cute" in your presence. Maybe your polite company hasn't allowed you to glean enough insight into how sexism manifests itself today, because bringing that up as an example of how women are favored seems completely out of touch.

Maybe one day you'll drop the defensive and charitably try to understand why these organizations happen in the first place.