NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide • Hacker News Board

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#381

Post by tripzilch » Wed, Oct 30, 2013, 10:07 PM UTC

pnathan wrote: post #349

danbruc wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am at a loss for words. Arrogant, self-righteous, disrespectful, ignorant, mendacious...nothing cuts it. It is illegal in the US but who cares about the rest of the world? I can not remember when something similar made me that angry as the current conduct of the US does. If I would not know better that this would negatively affect the whole world and innocent US citizens and that emotional reactions are usually not…

The purpose of intelligence agencies is to spy on non-citizens, both in peacetime and in wartime. One might argue that traditionally they focused on public figures in the foreign states and that spying on average foreigners is new; I don't know if that's true, but seems plausible. It would generally be a dereliction of duty for the NSA/CIA to not spy on non-Americans. The same holds true, modulo agency name and count…

Come on, say it to my face! You don't believe non-US people have a right to privacy. That's me! Your agencies can do whatever they want to me, but not to you.

You're on the public Internet, you're not "within national borders", and everybody can hear what you just said. Say it to my face. Tell me how you feel that it's just fine to violate my privacy, that it's apparently perfectly fine to pry into my life, hack my phone networks, to gather any possible information there is to know about me and all those around me, just because I'm not a US citizen, and you are. You are better and are entitled to these protections, I don't.

> The same holds true, modulo agency name and country, for any other country.

Not every country believes that their citizens are somehow exceptional and non-citizens can be treated however they please.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#382

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, Oct 30, 2013, 10:07 PM UTC

sukuriant wrote: post #365

allc wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because of their underlying lack of ethics. You need to have ethical hackers that are interested in the wellbeing/security of a community/society. Even if they know the systems from both perspectives, if they even have a moral deficiency, what's to stop them from committing insider attacks/writing exploits of the system? You cannot trust that type of people unless you know for certain that they have abandoned their p…

Given your assumptions, that makes sense; however, given what our parent commenter said, I came away with different assumptions. From our parent: I used to work in the antivirus industry, and, as I recall, anything that even hinted at a history of hacking or virus-writing would lead to instant dismissal and black-listing (from pretty much the entire computer security industry). I imagine that the same prohibition wou…

> From our parent: I used to work in the antivirus industry, and, as I recall, anything that even hinted at a history of hacking or virus-writing would lead to instant dismissal and black-listing (from pretty much the entire computer security industry).

A number of notable, convicted hackers have done additional work (whether employment or successful entrepreneurship or both) in the computer industry (in security-related or other subfields) after conviction. Kevin Mitnick, Julian Assange -- long before WikiLeaks -- and YC's cofounder Robert Tappan Morris are among the more notable examples.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#383

Post by nostrademons » Wed, Oct 30, 2013, 10:08 PM UTC

simplemath wrote: post #165

talon88 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you lay out the charges, special prosecutor?

Whats the charge for a state being the enemy of its own citizens?

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/declaration_transc...

(Lest anyone get the wrong idea, I'm not suggesting armed rebellion against the government. Rather, I'm pointing out that this situation has happened in history before, and, well, that's what we called it.)

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#384

Post by selmnoo » Wed, Oct 30, 2013, 10:09 PM UTC

cromwellian wrote: post #324

selmnoo wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not getting through to you. At the end of the day, Google lost. To a considerable extent, cloud lost. People who were trusting Google with their data lost. What is ostensibly true at this point at is that Google could have done something to have prevented this. All else is immaterial. Just like I would expect to lose business if I made a mistake and had data compromised (because doing X and Y was too difficult or…

Well, it would help if you would write in a way that is not insulting and condescending. There's no "if" about it. All security is based on threat model, the lock on your front door is based on the threat of the average criminal, and not Watergate burglars. Are you guilty of bad security? Is it your fault if your front door lock gets picked because you made assumptions about the sophistication of your attacker? You o…

How about not musing out loud that people who are criticizing companies just "want to hate on these companies", if you're entertaining the idea of not being insulting and condescending.

Google is a company that's been leading the way to get everyone on the cloud. It turns out what it's also been doing is making mass surveillance massively easy due to poor security practices. One individual having bad locks is not analogous to what is at play here. You keep suggesting that Google should get a free pass because the adversary in this case was too sophisticated of a player: no, that does not matter, that is an excuse. Don't give me excuses. Google makes billions, it should simply have done a better job. Your earlier post took issue with Google's brand being tarnished unfairly, this is what I'm talking about to you right now, so the question of just 'who' I will trust is not very relevant.

To answer your question anyway: basically I'm going to pull away from the cloud as much as I can. No more google apps for me, no more gmail, no more anything where I end up putting my personal data or my clients' data anywhere but on my dedicated servers -- and using end-to-end encryption when any data needs to travel out. That does not remove the possibility of getting compromised, it just mitigates it.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#385

Post by jganetsk » Wed, Oct 30, 2013, 10:12 PM UTC

danbruc wrote: post #337

jganetsk wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But, by denying movement, you are suggesting to treat US citizens as second class humans. To what purpose? in order to punish them? To educate them about your importance?

I am to lazy to type it again, but this comment [1] from me fits your comment pretty well. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6643253

I completely agree with your sentiment that no one is justified in thinking they are superior to anyone else. Furthermore, I have never said anything even remotely to the contrary.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#386

Post by jsmeaton » Wed, Oct 30, 2013, 10:13 PM UTC

allochthon wrote: post #206

danbruc wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am at a loss for words. Arrogant, self-righteous, disrespectful, ignorant, mendacious...nothing cuts it. It is illegal in the US but who cares about the rest of the world? I can not remember when something similar made me that angry as the current conduct of the US does. If I would not know better that this would negatively affect the whole world and innocent US citizens and that emotional reactions are usually not…

I would just cut all cables to the US, ... deny US citizens to enter any foreign country and then just do your shit over there and get happy with it. Whoah, there. Your grievances are well-placed. But keep in mind that it's a certain subset of agencies in the US government that are responsible for the problems you're upset about, not all US citizens. As for fixing things, the government has become literally unmanagea…

The US government throws its weight around by ordering sanctions against countries that have policies it does not agree with. I have no doubt that, where sanctions would be politically unpopular, there are back-room blackmailings of some type.

That said, instituting similar sanctions against the US should absolutely be the number one thing the rest of the world responds with! It might not be every US citizen that is culpable, but they are your representative government, and your responsibility. (I assume you're from the US, but I use "your" as a collective for anyone from the US that may be reading this).

Do you think the people might take a legitimate stand if business dealings, travel, and exports were banned to the United States? Do you think US citizens would go absolutely fucking crazy?

> As for fixing things, the government has become literally unmanageable, and things are a mess right now

Well untangle yourselves and then we'll talk.

Unfortunately, the US has so much power around the world that most countries are literally unable to respond. They are the new Rome, using political and economic power rather than pure force (but use force where necessary) to control the world. It's disgusting.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#387

Post by zevyoura » Wed, Oct 30, 2013, 10:15 PM UTC

cromwellian wrote: post #177

jakewalker wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who knows how many thousands of pages they need to read and understand? Also, don't underestimate the difficulty of a reporter understanding these thousands of documents sufficiently to recognize when one is really important.

If they don't understand what's going on, wouldn't that argue in favor of doing more detailed research and analysis before writing claims? The original assumptions/claims in the Guardian story on PRISM are now shown to be false. This caused a lot of negative blowback on the companies involved. Don't we expect our investigative journalists, to well, actually investigate things, instead of rushing to print?

What claims in the Guardian PRISM story have been shown to be false?

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#388

Post by VladRussian2 » Wed, Oct 30, 2013, 10:15 PM UTC

bjt wrote: post #192

bhousel wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would NSA agents go through all the trouble of tapping cables when they could probably just gain employment at Google and do whatever they want. I don't think encryption would make a difference here.

I'm not sure why you think that's so easy to do. You need a person who: 1. Has the technical credentials and interviewing skills to get hired at Google (not easy). 2. Has a security clearance. 3. Wants to be a spy. 4. Can get themselves assigned to the team working on datacenter interconnects. 5. Can set up a tap on the interconnect without getting caught. That sounds both hard and expensive to me.

there is also very easy other way around - "ask for help" [to fight terror and defend Motherland, err... USSR wording, today in the US it is "Homeland"] an existing Google employee.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#389

Post by mpyne » Wed, Oct 30, 2013, 10:16 PM UTC

kamjam wrote: post #166

adventured wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's far beyond special investigator time. Obama should be impeached. Both Obama and Bush should be tried for criminal conduct. Both should be put in prison for decades for treason. Of course on top of that are the war crimes and general crimes against humanity both committed (torture, war, murder of thousands of civilians, and so on).

It wasn't too long ago that Obama himself said Ed Snowden was not a patriot. Said it then, will say it again. The hypocrisy just reeks.

Snowden isn't a patriot though.

Certainly he has revealed a lot of scary information about the government that the people needed to know about, but opposing the state (which is what Snowden seems to do) does not always equate to supporting the nation.

Some of Snowden's disclosures have been directly harmful to American interests without a corresponding harm being done to the American people that would have warranted that disclosure. For instance, his leak of details of NSA hacking attempts against China.

Likewise, his disclosures about spying against allied heads-of-state. Knowing what your friends truly think would be invaluable for American interests when negotiating. I certainly agree that spying on friends like that is distasteful, but revealing that can't possibly be said to have helped the American people.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#390

Post by danbruc » Wed, Oct 30, 2013, 10:19 PM UTC

spikels wrote: post #369

danbruc wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are of course differences in the treatment of citizens and non-citizens and this for good reasons like controlling immigration. But there should be no differences when it comes to human rights including privacy rights and this is what I complain about - different treatment as to human rights. And this goes beyond spying and also includes for example torturing people in Guantanamo. And yes, not only the US are b…

Unfortunately we don't live in the world you imagine but I would join you in trying to improve the world we actually live in. I don't see how a trade and travel embargo could possibly help - it would almost certainly make things worse! Clearly there is no actual right to privacy under international law and rules vary greatly by country and are often weak in practice[1]. This is want we need to change either through t…

The thing about isolating the USA was not meant as a real solution, it was just to illustrate my feelings. See also this comment [1] of mine for a clarification.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) [1] contains privacy right in article 12 [3]. The UDHR is not legally binding but the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) [4] is and contains the privacy rights, too. The USA signed and ratified the ICCPR. Maybe someone should just sue all the spying nations.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6643253

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_...

[3] http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml

[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Covenant_on_Civil...