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Linus on "acting professionally"

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Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#381

Post by nknighthb »

smewpy wrote: post #355
fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't know exactly what it is that he said that was offensive in private, but he's actually being pretty reasonable here. I think what's being discussed is Linus' reaction to someone's patch on the lkml a few days ago. https://lkml.org/lkml/2013/7/13/132 Here is a preview: >What the F*CK, guys? >This piece-of-shit commit is marked for stable, but you clearly never >even test-compiled it, did you?

That style has merit. Whomever submitted that code, which obviously resulted in creating extra work to waste Linus' time, that person has many choices, such as leaving and never contributing again, or improving their code before next submit which might actually help the project. If they choose to tough it out improve their code in future submissions, then they will likely also have improved themselves in a lot of way…

The code may be bogus, but that's not actually what set Linus off. The target of his fury is not the code's author (Kees Cook, who is unlikely to be driven off by a Linus rant anyway), but trusted lieutenants who missed an obvious problem in a serious process failure. Gleixner has been around the better part of a decade, and hpa's contributions date back to the early 90s.

This is a "You know better than this!" rant, not an attack on some new guy.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#382

Post by rocky1138 »

DanBC wrote: post #356
jhspaybar wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, I cannot tell you how many times I've wanted to say something similar in a code review but instead go with "hey, this looks a little funny, any ideas what you could do to clean it up?" Part of me does think its rude, the other part is jealous he can say it and I can't :)

"Hey, this looks a little funny, any ideas what you could do to clean it up?" is ambiguous and doesn't help you. "Hey! This is broken. It doesn't do X, Y, or Z. Please make sure to check code thoroughly (refer to $DOCUMENT) before committing." is direct, tells people what's wrong, and isn't hostile. People will be offended by it, but those people can be made to understand that they are being given useful direct advic…

The feeling of being offended by such a message diminishes the more it happens, the more you fix and prevent the behaviour, and when you see your role models make similar mistakes, which has a tendency to humanize them.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#383

Post by garrison »

fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #303
podperson wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe he's just so talented that he can carry a huge interpersonal handicap. Actually, this email is pretty polite and to-the-point. I don't know exactly what it is that he said that was offensive in private, but he's actually being pretty reasonable here. The thing is, some people spend a lot of effort when writing to check that they don't accidentally leave "sharp edges" in their writing (and then they still fai…

>I don't know exactly what it is that he said that was offensive in private, but he's actually being pretty reasonable here. I think what's being discussed is Linus' reaction to someone's patch on the lkml a few days ago. https://lkml.org/lkml/2013/7/13/132 Here is a preview: >What the F*CK, guys? >This piece-of-shit commit is marked for stable, but you clearly never >even test-compiled it, did you?

I don't believe that quote is what she had an issue with.

See http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=137390362508794&w=2

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#384

Post by tmoertel »

The historical evidence suggests that when it comes to massive social systems like the Linux kernel project, Linus knows more about keeping them vigorous and relevant than just about any other person in existence. He runs what is probably the most successful software project in human history. He has created a sustainable, growing social system that, for over two decades, has accomplished monumental technical feats and shows no signs of slowing. As impressive as Linux is as a technical achievement, it pales in comparison to the social achievement that is the Linux kernel project.

Therefore, I don’t put much stock in people telling Linus how the Linux kernel project ought to be run. When he writes,

The fact is, people need to know what my position on things are. And I can't just say "please don't do that", because people won't listen. I say "On the internet, nobody can hear you being subtle", and I mean it. [1]

I’m inclined to believe him. Correspondingly, I have a hard time taking seriously the claims that the Linux kernel project, as a social system, would be better if Linus stopped doing what he’s doing and did something “nicer” instead. The historical evidence suggests that what Linus is doing (whatever it is) works better than what everybody else is doing.

[1] http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=137391223711946&w=2

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#385

Post by dionidium »

Robert Heinlein had something to say about this:

"Moving parts in rubbing contact require lubrication to avoid excessive wear. Honorifics and formal politeness provide lubrication where people rub together. Often the very young, the untravelled, the naive, the unsophisticated deplore these formalities as "empty," "meaningless," or "dishonest," and scorn to use them. No matter how "pure" their motives, they thereby throw sand into machinery that does not work too well at best."

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#386

Post by asterix9 »

fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #303
podperson wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe he's just so talented that he can carry a huge interpersonal handicap. Actually, this email is pretty polite and to-the-point. I don't know exactly what it is that he said that was offensive in private, but he's actually being pretty reasonable here. The thing is, some people spend a lot of effort when writing to check that they don't accidentally leave "sharp edges" in their writing (and then they still fai…

>I don't know exactly what it is that he said that was offensive in private, but he's actually being pretty reasonable here. I think what's being discussed is Linus' reaction to someone's patch on the lkml a few days ago. https://lkml.org/lkml/2013/7/13/132 Here is a preview: >What the F*CK, guys? >This piece-of-shit commit is marked for stable, but you clearly never >even test-compiled it, did you?

That's nothing, see this:

>Guys, this is not a dick-sucking contest. If you want to parse PE binaries, go right ahead. If Red Hat wants to deep-throat Microsoft, that's your issue

https://lkml.org/lkml/2013/2/21/228

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#388

Post by throwwiffle »

Since Linus is not actually impolite in this email, I'm just going to ignore that and comment on the main thing he talked about:

Calling things "professional" is just more of the same - trying to enforce some kind of convention on others by trying to claim that it's the only acceptable way.

Being professional is similar to being politically correct. Don't say anything impolite or you'll offend people, don't say anything 'unprofessional' or you'll get fired, don't say anything 'not politically correct' or (in some countries) you'll have the police knocking at your door. That is where it leads and that is why I support his argument.

Additionally, in my experience, the above behavior leads to behind-the-back sneaky and spiteful behavior. People who don't like something xyz is doing, so instead of risking confrontation by telling someone politely that it's annoying / won't work, they'll talk to the manager or get back at someone 3 weeks later.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#389

Post by general_failure »

fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #303
podperson wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe he's just so talented that he can carry a huge interpersonal handicap. Actually, this email is pretty polite and to-the-point. I don't know exactly what it is that he said that was offensive in private, but he's actually being pretty reasonable here. The thing is, some people spend a lot of effort when writing to check that they don't accidentally leave "sharp edges" in their writing (and then they still fai…

>I don't know exactly what it is that he said that was offensive in private, but he's actually being pretty reasonable here. I think what's being discussed is Linus' reaction to someone's patch on the lkml a few days ago. https://lkml.org/lkml/2013/7/13/132 Here is a preview: >What the F*CK, guys? >This piece-of-shit commit is marked for stable, but you clearly never >even test-compiled it, did you?

The reactions he got were great. Everyone apologized and will now make sure such mistakes don't happen again.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#390

Post by 3am »

shawabawa3 wrote: post #159
brk wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not good comparison. A country is essentially a fixed physical plot of land, with people, resources, climate, etc. If you leave a country you have to leave all of those things (and more) behind. Forking code essentially gives you the ability to take everything, and then move it in your own new direction. You leave behind only the parts you thought were "bad" or unprofessional or whatever.

> Not good comparison. A country is essentially a fixed physical plot of land, with people, resources, climate, etc. If you leave a country you have to leave all of those things (and more) behind. Yes it is. Saying you can just fork it is like saying you can just move yourself and all your family and friends to another country. You might be able to move yourself but moving any significant amount of developers is in p…

After you fork, you know you can just pull from the original project? That's why they call it the upstream.

Perhaps you're saying that you can't take the community with you? That doesn't seem like a reasonable expectation. You can fork, and you can continue to pull from upstream, but you can't force people to use it.

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