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I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

simonhartcher.com

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Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#381

Post by Implicated »

anonzzzies wrote: post #325
Implicated wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This, so much. I read that comment and immediately recoiled at the idea of waiting "less than a minute" to be able to do anything. I'd estimate that 1/3 of the time I even open my laptop, I'm done with what I needed in less time than that boot up sequence takes and have closed it and moved on to something else. So often I just pop it open, do/check something and close it within seconds. I go _months_ without rebootin…

...recoiled... Some people go to work, switch on their computer and turn it off when they leave. I would say most in the world do that. Sure they don't know the diff between clapping their macbook shut or switching something off, but 1 minute does not make people 'recoil'. Very strange.

Totally understandable. You're right that those people are highly unlikely to really care between 2 seconds to being functional and 60 seconds. They're at the coffee machine anyway.

I've been obsessed with building things since I got my first lincoln logs set. I don't "clock out". There's no work computer and life computer, or even more foreign to me, no computer when not at work. I take my laptop nearly everywhere with me and have been known to pull over into the nearest gas station or any parking lot, pull it out and immediately write some code or make some notes due to something I'd just then had some breakthrough or idea about. There's no way I'm doing that if it takes a full minute to boot up and I'm there looking at a fresh rebooted OS. But if I can open it, touch my finger to the fingerprint reader and _immediately_ be productive? Happens all the time.

Hell, I'll walk across the room and open my laptop when my phone is in my pocket because it's just easier to use and it's immediately functional.

Different strokes for different folks, but I'd venture to bet that my experience mimics that of many others.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#383

Post by chithanh »

jeffbee wrote: post #6

The ISA has nothing to do with the battery life. Battery life is the result of getting details right at every level of the software stack. Framework doesn't control every level of the stack. Arguably they don't control any of it.

The ISA not but the platform does.

Like you can make an x86 computer that is not a PC. PS4 is one example: https://fail0verflow.com/media/33c3-slides/#/22

But when you make a PC, you are stuck with multiple layers of legacy crap, any of which can prevent proper low power states or suspend.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#384

Post by elxr »

dijit wrote: post #351
vander_elst wrote: post #348

Honest question, how is it possible that Macs are so much better in terms of hardware? Context: I use a MacBook at work and a Lenovo with Linux at home and now I might need to change my personal laptop, but I struggle to find (hardware) reasons why not to buy a MacBook, a MacBook Air is actually cheaper than another laptops with similar specs. There's still the ideology of repairability and openness which still plays…

CPUs are the main reason. They’re about 1-1.5 generations ahead of AMDs mobile offering, and OEMs have sweetheart deals with Intel, which is more like 4-5 generations behind. So flagship business laptops (which are the only comparable laptops in terms of build quality to Macbooks) are hamstrung, and everything else is built like a matchbox even with AMD cpus.

[dead]

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#385

Post by bzzzt »

didibus wrote: post #336
maverwa wrote: post #17

The complaint about power usage in suspend is especially sad because it’s pretty much a common problem for Linux on laptops. Not sure if that’s what applies here, but the numbers about match what I see with my Framework. Basically: if you want to use secure boot you usually also want kernel lockdown mode, and you cannot hibernate a lockdowned kernel. At least not without out-of-tree patches. IMHO that’s a giant issue…

> If you can’t hibernate (aka suspend to disk) you will never be able to get that power consumption low Does Mac hibernate? Because if it does, the wake up is literally under 100ms, it's just imperceptible. You open the lid and it's already awake.

Mac M series don't do hibernation, probably because sleep has so little impact on battery life (my MacBook lasts for about a month in sleep mode) and Apple doesn't like to burden users with questions like 'what sleep mode to use'.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#386

Post by chithanh »

acc348 wrote: post #102
aurareturn wrote: post #13

What mission do you love from Framework? Is it environmental? If so, I seriously doubt that the lifetime pollution of a Framework laptop is better than an Apple Silicon Mac. Macbooks tend to last a very long time. I used my Intel Macbook Air for 10 years. After that, I sold it and maybe it continued to get used by the second owner. While you can keep upgrading Framework laptops (parts require shipping/pollution to ma…

> Macbooks tend to last a very long time. MacBooks had historically tons of design issues with keyboards and GPUs. Which I guess can happen, but the problem with Apple is that they never admin anything until someone drags them to court and the out of warranty repair is always extremely expensive, usually not worth it. The battery replacement can also be extremely expensive, especially if you live in a country without…

The GPU solder joint issue was NVidia's fault. I remember also Dell and others were affected, and I think MacBooks used only AMD dGPUs afterwards.

But otherwise, between the Butterfly keyboard, Flexgate, and placing the backlight driver voltage pin next to a data pin on the display connector (Louis Rossmann complained a lot about that one, as debris or moisture could easily cause a short and fry your CPU), indeed Apple does have their fair share of design issues.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#387

Post by vaylian »

goku12 wrote: post #372
Throwaway123129 wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a Linux issue (Though the hibernate issues are!). It's a PC issue. Microsoft went on a crusade making hardware vendors implement S0 next to S3 but most hardware vendors now _only_ implement S0. So that the laptop can keep phoning home and download updates etc whilst closed. Which means it's impossible to turn off the CPU during suspend. it's always on. PC as a laptop platform is a complete joke.

Shouldn't that mean that the relatively open platforms like Framework should work better, since they lack the incentive to defy the user/owner like the locked-down platforms do? What would prevent Framework or anything similar from implementing the other sleep states?

Framework doesn't produce it's own CPUs. It buys them directly from Intel. Producing your own CPU is really difficult, if you want it to be competitive with other state-of-the-art CPUs.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#388

Post by maeln »

goku12 wrote: post #372
Throwaway123129 wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a Linux issue (Though the hibernate issues are!). It's a PC issue. Microsoft went on a crusade making hardware vendors implement S0 next to S3 but most hardware vendors now _only_ implement S0. So that the laptop can keep phoning home and download updates etc whilst closed. Which means it's impossible to turn off the CPU during suspend. it's always on. PC as a laptop platform is a complete joke.

Shouldn't that mean that the relatively open platforms like Framework should work better, since they lack the incentive to defy the user/owner like the locked-down platforms do? What would prevent Framework or anything similar from implementing the other sleep states?

As I remember, sleep state are mostly implemented by the CPU (or require the CPU collaboration), and neither intel nor AMD does s3 sleep on their proc anymore.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#389

Post by teekert »

It's a shame indeed. I've been a long, long time Linux user and just trained myself to always power off (although I feel that in the old days this was less of an issue? Can that be? Just install ACPI-tools or something?), feels more tidy anyway. But yeah that's what it does to you to always grab a laptop that either has 0 battery or is cooking, from a backpack.

On the other hand, yesterday my sons Windows Laptop (we keep an open mind in this family + school requires it) was also cooking in his backpack so there is that...

How are System76 laptops in this regards? You'd think somehow because of the hardware control they should have this down? At least when sticking to Po#@Po!s!.

Ah well, you can see that the money is on the server part when it comes to Linux ;)

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#390

Post by izacus »

bzzzt wrote: post #385
didibus wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you can’t hibernate (aka suspend to disk) you will never be able to get that power consumption low Does Mac hibernate? Because if it does, the wake up is literally under 100ms, it's just imperceptible. You open the lid and it's already awake.

Mac M series don't do hibernation, probably because sleep has so little impact on battery life (my MacBook lasts for about a month in sleep mode) and Apple doesn't like to burden users with questions like 'what sleep mode to use'.

That's just plainly not true.

Apple calls it "Safe Sleep" (https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/mac-help/mh10328/mac) and you get a progress bar when it wakes from it. Yes, even on magical Ms.

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