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I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

simonhartcher.com

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Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#101

Post by TYPE_FASTER »

I think Apple's success at using power management data from their mobile products to make computer hardware with really good power management is highlighting just how bad computer power management has been.

When you close the lid on a laptop, there are a lot of layers that all have to do the right thing. How is Windows configured? How do the drivers installed on that laptop handle the Windows state transitions? How do all the pieces of hardware on that laptop (CPU, etc.) work together to implement the various states?

I think it is possible for a computer manufacturer like Framework to work with operating system vendors like Microsoft and Canonical, and hardware vendors like Intel and AMD to improve how power management is implemented in their hardware.

There is always some level of "friction" involved when you are trying to integrate across different vendors. Some of the best Windows hardware I've used was made by Microsoft. The Surface line, at least in my experience, is really good.

It will require an investment of course, but I think it is possible.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#102

Post by acc348 »

aurareturn wrote: post #13

What mission do you love from Framework? Is it environmental? If so, I seriously doubt that the lifetime pollution of a Framework laptop is better than an Apple Silicon Mac. Macbooks tend to last a very long time. I used my Intel Macbook Air for 10 years. After that, I sold it and maybe it continued to get used by the second owner. While you can keep upgrading Framework laptops (parts require shipping/pollution to ma…

> Macbooks tend to last a very long time.

MacBooks had historically tons of design issues with keyboards and GPUs. Which I guess can happen, but the problem with Apple is that they never admin anything until someone drags them to court and the out of warranty repair is always extremely expensive, usually not worth it.

The battery replacement can also be extremely expensive, especially if you live in a country without any Apple Store. Battery replacement for M4 Air is like $340 in my country, which is insane for a $800 machine.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#103

Post by dpoloncsak »

BirAdam wrote: post #53
cosmic_cheese wrote: post #31

As suggested in the blog post, the battery life issue is complex. You do need a CPU/SoC that’s efficient, and while Intel and AMD can do this it’s traditionally been a struggle for them. Next, the OS needs to be capable of taking full advantage of the chip’s efficiency. Windows could be decent here in, but Microsoft doesn’t believe in an operating system that’s ever truly idle (and neither do the third parties living…

Excellent point with Steam Deck. The machine is proof that x86 and Linux can do it and simply don’t.

While proof, I think it also highlights the root cause of the issue.

Linux is developed to be compatible with different hardware setups.

SteamOS and MacOS are both (supposed to be) locked to their respective hardware. It works on that hardware, but ymmv on anything else.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#104

Post by joshstrange »

cosmic_cheese wrote: post #31

As suggested in the blog post, the battery life issue is complex. You do need a CPU/SoC that’s efficient, and while Intel and AMD can do this it’s traditionally been a struggle for them. Next, the OS needs to be capable of taking full advantage of the chip’s efficiency. Windows could be decent here in, but Microsoft doesn’t believe in an operating system that’s ever truly idle (and neither do the third parties living…

> It’s possible for x86 machines to manage this state correctly, as proven by Valve’s Steam Deck which can be put to sleep and drain its battery slowly enough to stay alive for a week or more.

I had the original Steam Deck and the OLED Steam Deck and neither of them would hold a charge past a day or so. It's a constant annoyance for me as I don't want to leave it plugged in 24/7 but if I don't, it won't be ready to go when I use it. I often end up playing while plugged in which is just silly.

A week of battery (while it's "off") would be amazing, it feels like I can't get 24hrs without the battery being trash.

Compare this to my iPad or MBP and the difference is stark. I really only use my Switch in docked mode (the joycons suck) so I don't have a good read on how long it holds it's battery but I assume it must be better than the Steam Deck.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#105

Post by lynndotpy »

Aurornis wrote: post #64
cardanome wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you a gnome user? Linux Mint with Cinnamon is bliss. Or well anything else, you are absolutely spoiled for choice with Desktop Environments in Linux. There is the perfect one for everyone. At least if you use X11, wayland is still a turd. I found the Mac Desktop absolutely unusable for any development work as it comes out of the box. You need a metric ton of third-party extensions for simple stuff like proper alt…

> Linux Mint with Cinnamon is bliss. This is one of my go-tos when I need a VM, so I’m familiar. > I found the Mac Desktop absolutely unusable for any development work as it comes out of the box. But why are we comparing vanilla macOS to an extreme customized Linux setup as if they’re the same thing? Why one set of rules for one platform but those criteria are suspended for Linux, where we get to assume some specific…

> But why are we comparing vanilla macOS to an extreme customized Linux setup as if they’re the same thing?

Your assumption that these Linux setups are "extremely customized" is wrong. Personally, I hate configuring or customizing much at all. The appeal of Linux is that there are distros that come configured out-of-the-box pretty much as I like it, whereas MacOS and especially Windows requires configuration and constant upkeep and maintenance. (MacOS doesn't even come with a decent terminal, for starters.)

For me, my main problem with MacOS is that it's full of looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong animations that you can not disable or remove. Disabling animations (or setting them to be <10ms long) is one of the few configurations I like to do. But this is not even an option on Apple's operating systems. It's like running through molasses in a dream-- it's so damnedly and artificially slow.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#106

Post by lynndotpy »

mschaef wrote: post #15
cardanome wrote: post #8

As a Linux user I feel you. The Mac Desktop is vastly inferior to the Linux world (for power users) but the hardware is so, so good. For me it is about having a completely silent setup. It is so, so hard to go back to noisy fans. I really hope Asahi Linux keep going so I can have the best of both worlds.

> The Mac Desktop is vastly inferior to the Linux world Asking out of curiosity, why is this? What's the functionality you miss on Mac?

Personally, most of my problems with MacOS (and Apple's operating systems) would be fixed if it were faster. The OS is full of very lengthy animations that aren't necessary, such as when switching between desktops.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#107

Post by esalman »

lynndotpy wrote: post #106
mschaef wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Mac Desktop is vastly inferior to the Linux world Asking out of curiosity, why is this? What's the functionality you miss on Mac?

Personally, most of my problems with MacOS (and Apple's operating systems) would be fixed if it were faster. The OS is full of very lengthy animations that aren't necessary, such as when switching between desktops.

Looks like on Windows it possible to disable all animations, including switch desktop, but you have to press two buttons to switch.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#108

Post by aurareturn »

whatarethembits wrote: post #95
aurareturn wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you willing to pay 2x the price for a Framework and get a worse overall experience in exchange for repairability? Keep in mind that the Framework spare parts are generally also pretty expensive.

...worse overall experience... Worse how? RAM, SSD and main board can be upgraded as an when needed, which is the point. I like Framework's aesthetics more than MacBook already, and like the little customisablity (i.e bezel, mismatched coloured parts etc). I can accept a lower quality screen (compared to MacBook), speakers and camera no problem. I'm willing to pay higher than MacBook price for the above package due t…

  Worse how?
Every major laptop experience. Performance, noise, temperature, trackpad, battery life, size, screen quality, speakers. 2x the price as well.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#109

Post by Klonoar »

cardanome wrote: post #80
Klonoar wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other OS’s handling of “alt-tab” does not make it de facto “proper”. You are trying to use macOS like your other favorite OS(s). This is not how macOS has ever worked, and the macOS approach is more than fine for millions of people.

I doesn't matter if it is fine for millions of people if it isn't fine for me.

None of that matters when it was your poor description being corrected.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#110

Post by hspak »

cosmic_cheese wrote: post #31

As suggested in the blog post, the battery life issue is complex. You do need a CPU/SoC that’s efficient, and while Intel and AMD can do this it’s traditionally been a struggle for them. Next, the OS needs to be capable of taking full advantage of the chip’s efficiency. Windows could be decent here in, but Microsoft doesn’t believe in an operating system that’s ever truly idle (and neither do the third parties living…

My Thinkpad X1 Carbon (gen 5) running linux can suspend for weeks without dying. There was definitely a window where battery life under suspending wasn't a huge problem in Linux, not sure what happened.

I also have a Framework 13 (11th gen intel) which has terrible suspend battery life (also loses 2-3%/hour like the newer AMD version)– I was hoping that the AMD chips would fare better, but it seems not.

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