Earlier quoted context omitted.
if the car is going slower than the limit but you have a very limited window of time to pass it, the only way is to temporarily go above the speed limit.
Slowing down isn't an option?
Speed limiters now mandatory in all new EU cars
381–390 of 401 posts
Re: Speed limiters now mandatory in all new EU cars
#382Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well if so many folks didn't speed all the damn time, and if speeding wasn't one of the top cause of vehicular accidents (in the US), then we wouldn't need this
"One of the top" is a nice weasel phrase. Lightning strike is one of the top causes of death in the US too, for a large enough number of causes. Not wearing a seat belt caused more deaths than speeding, yet cars don't refuse to start without a seat belt.
Re: Speed limiters now mandatory in all new EU cars
#383Earlier quoted context omitted.
> [T]here does, however, have to be either a GPS and/or camera pointing outwards (that could be used to ID location) in order to know what the current speed limit is for the drivers given location. Used by whom? The mechanic who services my car? I see the problem if the location data is being broadcast to some central server... so don't do that. But that's not necessary for implementation. The ideal implementation in…
> Used by whom? That's where the concern is. If the government is mandating it, it seems reasonable to think that more likely than not, they will want access to it. Even if for no other reason than to hand out tickets. The potential for that data to leak out is there. > so don't do that It's nice that you have a solution that would respect privacy concerns, but where should we be getting confidence from that a govern…
Sorry, how? You keep claiming this is a privacy concern, but so far, I see no evidence whatsoever that implementation of this anti-speeding regulation requires violations of privacy rights, or is planned to include violations of privacy rights.
It's beginning to sound like you just want to speed and are trying to justify that position by claiming that it's a violation of privacy when it simply isn't. If some form of enforcement violates people's rights to privacy, I'll oppose that, but I'm not going to oppose speeding regulation that saves lives on the basis that hypothetical enforcement options violate privacy rights. There are plenty of ways to implement anti-speeding enforcement that don't violate privacy rights.
Your argument right now is tantamount to claiming we can't have laws that might be enforced by violating people's privacy, but that logic applies to a whole lot of laws which you obviously don't support reversing. Should child pornography be legal? Should blowing up planes? Laws against those things have been implemented in ways that violate people's rights to privacy far more often than speeding. And I do agree that we should enforce those laws without violating people's privacy, but obviously we agree we can't just legalize those things because they might be enforced using methods that violate the right to privacy.
Re: Speed limiters now mandatory in all new EU cars
#384Earlier quoted context omitted.
>It still turns you into a road hazard and puts you in a dangerous situation How do you know? You make assumptions about a system, that doesn't even is put in place. No car manufacture will use the forth way and risks getting sued if it doesn't work good enough.
> How do you know? You make assumptions about a system, that doesn't even is put in place It seems obvious that any situation that unexpectedly decreases a driver's control over their vehicle creates a hazard and becomes dangerous This is true with any situation regardless of if the loss of control is caused by hydroplaning, slipping on black ice, an unexpected flat tire, or a speed limiting system misreading a road…
Re: Speed limiters now mandatory in all new EU cars
#385Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The reason I'm not free to assault others is because I'm directly causing them to lose their right to life and/or well-being. Whereas speeding merely creates a risk of harm, not harm itself. And speeding is illegal. So it seems we as a society have agreed this is not a violation of personal freedoms. Your argument here is really "speeding is okay and speeding creates risk to others, therefore I should be able to cr…
> And speeding is illegal. So it seems we as a society have agreed this is not a violation of personal freedoms. Correct. And nobody in this thread is arguing that speeding should not be illegal. > Your argument here is really "speeding is okay and speeding creates risk to others, therefore I should be able to create risk to others"? Nope. Never said anything of the sort. You're again straying from the actual topic a…
You can, in fact, dismiss the argument of personal freedom purely on the basis that someone is creating a life and death risk for others, though. You've presented no cogent argument otherwise.
> The concept that a driver would sometimes be given the freedom to surpass the speed limit, when they judge it necessary, is not even particularly controversial.
We're in the middle of a controversy on this topic, therefore it is in fact controversial. QED.
> Police use broad discretion to not enforce speed limits to the letter of the law.
Yes, and that is clearly an abuse of power--one of many police abuses of power that our society is struggling to curb. Is that really the argument you want to be making?
> In fact many states have laws that crack down on police departments staging "speed traps" to generate speeding ticket revenue.
Yes: and why is that? Is it because they think police should have discretion to not enforce the letter of the law? How on earth does that follow?
> Which is society's way of saying that, yes, speeding is illegal, but that illegality isn't meant to be a lever for government oppression.
Alternative explanation: this is society's way of saying that, yes, speeding is illegal, but road infrastructure should be designed to make the law useful and possible to follow.
The "no speed traps" laws I'm aware of are focused on a) giving drivers signage that adequately indicates a change in speed limit in advance to give drivers a chance to adjust their speed, and b) removing police perverse incentives to enforce the law in ways that don't achieve its purpose. These laws address very specific problems that have nothing to do with your vague "lever for government oppression" idea.
Be honest with yourself: you've experienced having the ability to speed "at your discretion" if you've driven a car, because cars currently don't have speed limiters. Have you ever, even once used that discretion to speed for a good reason? Or are you just grasping at straws to justify why you should be allowed to put other people's lives in danger because you're impatient?
Re: Speed limiters now mandatory in all new EU cars
#386Earlier quoted context omitted.
From TFA: > Cars have been able to figure out when they're speeding for a while, thanks to GPS as well as traffic sign recognition
This is going to lead to some backpedaling. On one stretch of ring road (120km/h limit) my car consistently catches 80km/h signs set up for the exit roads.
Personally, I think this (speed-limit aware speed limiters) are going to trigger Congress to either fast-track legislation to disable them. Specifically, once the general public is aware of what's going on, they will stop buying new cars and car manufacturers will push on Congress.
I also think the legislation was written by someone who is very naive about engineering. What I remember is they tolerate a 10% error rate. If 10% of the cars are going too slow during rush hour, it's just going to create a major traffic jam.
Re: Speed limiters now mandatory in all new EU cars
#387Re: Speed limiters now mandatory in all new EU cars
#388Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Used by whom? That's where the concern is. If the government is mandating it, it seems reasonable to think that more likely than not, they will want access to it. Even if for no other reason than to hand out tickets. The potential for that data to leak out is there. > so don't do that It's nice that you have a solution that would respect privacy concerns, but where should we be getting confidence from that a govern…
> Correct, it's a problem that exists, and it's a problem that is made worse by this legislation. Sorry, how? You keep claiming this is a privacy concern, but so far, I see no evidence whatsoever that implementation of this anti-speeding regulation requires violations of privacy rights, or is planned to include violations of privacy rights. It's beginning to sound like you just want to speed and are trying to justify…
I re-wrote this to the top to try and find common ground between us, rather than just bickering:
I think that what would immediately dissolve any difference in opinion that you and I have would be this: legislation is also passed that expressly defines privacy-preserving requirements that car manufacturers (and the government) need to obey. That would mean a blind (no PII), no-backdoor, encrypted, non-tracked system for implementing a speed-limiter (bonus points if it applies to any/all phoning home that cars do). If something like that was clearly defined, the privacy concerns I (and others) have are actually accounted for.
.
And then to clarify what I've been trying to say/ respond to what you've written:
We have laws against speeding, those are laws regardless of if speed limiters exist. You're painting my argument out to be "I don't like the enforcement of this law, so it shouldn't be a law at all" and that is just simply not what I am saying.
It's the method of enforcement that causes the privacy concern, not the law itself. We can (and always will/should) have laws against speeding. We do not have to mandate every new car have a new privacy risk added to effectively enforce speeding laws.
Constantly adding ever more invasive mandates to enforce laws just takes us further and further down the path of privacy violations. You say that there's no evidence that this regulation requires violating privacy rights, but when the legislation doesn't expressly account for preserving privacy, than it's a safe bet that privacy will not be protected, and will (eventually) be abused.
Re: Speed limiters now mandatory in all new EU cars
#389Earlier quoted context omitted.
> And speeding is illegal. So it seems we as a society have agreed this is not a violation of personal freedoms. Correct. And nobody in this thread is arguing that speeding should not be illegal. > Your argument here is really "speeding is okay and speeding creates risk to others, therefore I should be able to create risk to others"? Nope. Never said anything of the sort. You're again straying from the actual topic a…
> The context being that you can't dismiss the argument of personal freedom purely on the basis that someone is creating risk for others. You can, in fact, dismiss the argument of personal freedom purely on the basis that someone is creating a life and death risk for others, though. You've presented no cogent argument otherwise. > The concept that a driver would sometimes be given the freedom to surpass the speed lim…
As a reminder, I'm not arguing speeding should be legal. I'm arguing that mandating speed limiters in cars is not a good solution. And the onus would be on the one arguing for the institution of such a regulation to justify it, which you have not done.
> You can, in fact, dismiss the argument of personal freedom purely on the basis that someone is creating a life and death risk for others, though.
You're contradicting yourself now. Whatever happened to "obviously there's some tradeoffs involved" in the case of banning driving? Either creating risk for others alone is sufficient justification for the removal of a freedom, or it isn't. Obviously the degree of risk created is not the criteria either, since, as we've already covered, banning driving would save 100x more lives than speed limiters would. So obviously there are more factors involved in the decision than just the creation of risk, nor the amount or degree of risk.
Therefore, no, "creating a life and death risk for others" alone is not a sufficient argument. While I do agree that it is one factor involved, it is not the sole factor. You have to also consider the cost of the solution, the real-world measurable benefits of the solution, inefficiencies and inaccuracies of the solution (e.g. missing or defaced signage, signage read incorrectly), the risk that the solution itself creates (e.g. a car is being followed closely. Now when the speed limit changes, slowing down automatically, rather than at the driver's own discretion, creates risk for this driver) and many other factors.
(This EU law, specifically, is merely a "soft" approach, since many of the mandated options aren't actually speed limiters, they are simply warnings to the driver. I'm specifically arguing against a "hard" approach where cars limit their own speed.)
The rest of your post is focused on a point I made about how society (in general, at least where I live - I don't know where you live and I obviously can't speak for you personally) already does not view speeding as something that could reasonably be enforced by mechanical limiter (since there are many situations where drivers facing unusual or extenuating circumstances are given leniency by cops and judges, and society tends to view this favorably, and tends to view harsh enforcement very unfavorably. This stands in contrast to the treatment and attitude toward most other crimes, where no excuse or extenuating circumstance tends to warrant leniency, unless the person literally had no other choice.) If you disagree with society on that point, then that's something you should take up with society. Regardless, it was a tangential point. (It was only worth mentioning because, society are the ones who elect the lawmakers at the end of the day. So they are ultimately the benchmark of whether a given legal doctrine is considered controversial or not.)
Re: Speed limiters now mandatory in all new EU cars
#390Earlier quoted context omitted.
Even in that situation, hitting the brakes and aborting the overtake maneuver is the safer option. With ABS ubiquitous, even hard braking should leave your car maneuverable. If you push on the accelerator, you are just increasing the risk, as you'll hit the car at a much higher speed. The crash is going to be 10x worse. A speed limit would safe a lot of lives, but no-one will implement it because people like to speed…
>>Even in that situation, hitting the brakes and aborting the overtake maneuver is the safer option. I'm sure you can imagine a scenario where it's impossible to abort - the vehicle incoming is a 40 tonne truck, they won't stop in time to not hit you, you can't merge back into your lane, and there is no room on the other side to escape to - your only option is to accelerate and hope for a tight squeeze. >>If you push…