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The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

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Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#381
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paris is closing the already pretty closed downtown ( along the Seine ). Does that qualify as large metro area? What are the actual piece of reality that makes it impossible in US cities?

It's totally possible, but not as a step change. Heavy car traffic is a stable system that's actively unfriendly to pedestrian and bicycle uses. You need to slowly claw away space for bicycles and increase ridership; and then work to densify and intermix commercial and residential for things to work well. It takes decades, and the initial steps make things worse even if the new equilibrium is better.

Yes, it takes grits. Yo expands on Paris, Each mayor has been hated for it. The last one in particular. But then the reclaimed public space speaks for itself. Usually it seams irreal to think that an highway was in place of that canal/pedestrian area/bike lane/long park

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish I was further out of the city. I think if actual self-driving cars arrive, they will fuel sprawl like nothing else before. I wouldn't mind a long commute if I could sleep or work or chill out as my car drove me to work.

Why pay to have a house then though. Just have a self-driving RV and live wherever you want. You can live in the office parking lot during the week, and in the park the rest of the time.

Because I do want a home base. I want a large workshop for woodworking, painting, and maybe ceramics. I want a place to have musical instruments. I want a great home theater, gym, sauna, and an amazing kitchen. I want space to work on my motorcycle.

Land is important. I want a big garden and lots of space between me and my neighbors. I want quiet nights and a dark sky.

I could never afford this near a city, but once you drive thirty to sixty minutes, there are a lot of options.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#383
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's totally possible, but not as a step change. Heavy car traffic is a stable system that's actively unfriendly to pedestrian and bicycle uses. You need to slowly claw away space for bicycles and increase ridership; and then work to densify and intermix commercial and residential for things to work well. It takes decades, and the initial steps make things worse even if the new equilibrium is better.

> Heavy car traffic is a stable system that's actively unfriendly to pedestrian and bicycle uses. You need to slowly claw away space for bicycles and increase ridership; and then work to densify and intermix commercial and residential for things to work well. > > It takes decades, and the initial steps make things worse even if the new equilibrium is better. Your point about the stable equilibrium is correct, but the…

Things can definitely improve. I'm thinking of Copenhagen, which is probably the most bicycle friendly city in the world; it's taken about 50-70 years of bicycle-friendly policy and it's only now reached a point where number of car trips per day and bicycle trips per day in the city are equal.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#384
>> he was saying that his house never used to flood and he was blaming it on an enormous parking lot that had been constructed and the displacement of water falling on that parking lot, and how that was contributing to the stormwater issue in his neighborhood.

The hardest day’s work I ever did was soil percolation testing as a summer CivE intern. Some municipalities have a rule for new development where any rain that is expected to fall on a property must be absorbed by the property, so a percolation test (“perc test”) gives you a number you can use to figure out how much of your landscape you need to keep undeveloped in order to absorb the needed rainfall.

In the municipality I was in, a test involved digging a cylinder hole roughly a foot in diameter and a few feet deep, then periodically dumping in a painters bucket of water. You’d then record how many inches of the dumped water was absorbed every ten minutes or so over the course of the next few hours. It’s not the most scientific test: the tests don’t normalize for recent rainfall, for one, but it’s part of the rules. For the property we were testing (summer camp), me and two other people dug twelve holes throughout the property and staggered our water pours so we could walk in a loop and continuously take measurements. The kicker was that there were only two water spouts on the property to fill the buckets, so the whole day consisted of lugging water buckets up and down hills in the mosquitos and humidity so we could finish the tests.

More broadly, though, an interesting consequence of water runoff rules is that it shapes how you design a home. Since too much house meant the remaining grass isn’t considered sufficient drainage, architects are disincentivized from having any roof overhang: since the covered roof area on small lots is constrained anyway, you make more money if you put house under all of it! This is also a reason you’ll see houses with gravel driveways: gravel driveways are good for water percolation.

>> When somebody decides they want to open a new restaurant or open a new building, instead of saying it needs X number of spaces, we could say, let’s look at the parking stock and find accommodations that are already there. Office parking could be used at night for residential parking. That dentist’s office parking lot could become the parking lot for a restaurant.

If I recall correctly, the town I was working in had some limited version of this. There could be sharing between businesses whose operating hours differed considerably, but these rules were piecemeal and didn’t help a whole lot in normal situations like when several similar businesses are nearby (i.e. restaurants). In the municipality I was working in, there was a table in the regulations mapping the business type (restaurant, medical, retail, etc.) to the number of parking spaces required per unit area (not per expected occupants). You actually need *more* parking per area for a bar than you do for a restaurant, because it’s standing room.

>>The first is that many jurisdictions in this country have parking requirements for new housing. That places a geometric and financial constraint on the types of things that can be built”

These requirements aren’t just things like “you need space for two cars for this house”, but also things like “the corner between the driveway and the street must be rounded by at least a radius R”, which when combined with all of the other geometric rules about the house footprint, setbacks (distance to the edge of property you can’t build in, which themselves sometimes vary depending on what edge of the property is on a street) etc, it becomes a bit of a jigsaw puzzle.

I don’t want to keep rambling too much but I think what I’m trying to communicate is that whenever you see a parking lot or building which looks like it made with some horrible, obvious design flaws, the engineer who designed it was fully aware of there being a better alternative. By the time you apply all the federal, state, and local rules, the number of knobs an engineer can actually tune for parking or building layout are surprisingly limited. Whether you think this is a good or bad thing is up to you.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s mostly because of zoning. If you separate retail from offices from housing, you force people to have cars to get around. Which then requires large parking lots and wide roads to deal with all the cars, in a big feedback loop. Those who can’t drive (about a third of the population are too young, too old, or disabled) are just forced to make do. Not to mention how difficult it is for the poor. Owning a car is real…

You're not gonna get rid of the need to commute. Once people start forming families, "live next to work" is likely to be very unrealistic for one of the people involved, assuming they both work. One person gets a new job across town and the other doesn't? Setting aside whether or not most people would want to move anytime that happened, there's no longer a single answer. Start throwing kids in the mix and it gets eve…

In other countries you can commute easily without a car by using transit and rail.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#386
post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your number seems very you-specific. Back-of-the-envelope math, seems like you drive I totally believe that it is possible that these are indeed your costs but I'll give you a counter-example. My Highlander was about $50K all in. Let's say I keep it for 10 years, that's $5 per year right there. Insurance is about $1.5K so we're at $6.5K and that's a good deal for around here. If we drive into Manhattan on a weekday,…

> My Highlander was about $50K all in. Let's say I keep it for 10 years, that's $5 per year right there. Not really, the car doesn't evaporate on year 10. On a quick search I see 2013 Highlanders (you didn't mention a year but those are 10 years old now) selling from ~14K to ~20K. So looks like you'd get about a third of the purchase cost back when you sell it. That's a 50K car though. If you like to spend on that, g…

Agree. Nobody needs to do that. And I am not complaining.

I am simply showing that it's easy to get to that ballpark number with relatively generic car owners behavior.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#387

We have an abundance of parking and a shortage of housing, it's too bad we don't have a way to quickly setup housing (even temporary) in parking areas. Most parking is already located near other utilities so they would already be close by. To start with, we could require every parking lot over a certain size provide basic amenities like public restrooms with showers and water fountains.

When developers apply for a permit to build an apartment building on a parking lot people howl about the character of the neighborhood.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very North American biased view. In fact, many studies have shown that in reasonably structured cities, pedestrians and public transit users are a more important source of income to downtown commercial services than motorists. Their individual transactions tend to be smaller, but there are more of them. But it's also vital that the city center and its neighboring areas are actually places where people live,…

> But yes, many business owners (and the sorts of politicians they tend to vote) are irrationally attached to the idea that motorists are the ones who bring in the money If they're so irrational, go and start a business with no parking! I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm saying that you're not appreciating the forces that make people put up with commutes and parking in the first place. > pedestrians and public tran…

Yeah because their plan was stupid. For what's being asked of it, they should make Valencia one-way to accommodate its needs.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#389
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s mostly because of zoning. If you separate retail from offices from housing, you force people to have cars to get around. Which then requires large parking lots and wide roads to deal with all the cars, in a big feedback loop. Those who can’t drive (about a third of the population are too young, too old, or disabled) are just forced to make do. Not to mention how difficult it is for the poor. Owning a car is real…

I hope/believe that we are near a tipping point. There is a very large and very substantial neighborhood premium based on what's around it, but the zoning is the same everywhere so the competition was legally restricted to greenways, sidewalks, parks, and HOA facilities. Even in the suburban US, it is a VERY desirable feature to be within walking distance of a park where young children can play. This has created a st…

I think the lifestyle you desire can be had somewhat near downtown areas of large cities in the South. However, areas tend to quickly flip-flop between gentrified and not. Things within walking distance may be slightly limited.

Worse, this is really just for the 20-30s crowd or childless crowd. As soon as you have kid(s), you’ll probably find this unsuitable (school quality/location, 3 floor townhouse design, etc). If you went to college and grad school and then moved out there, you might only have 5 years of this…

For the better schools in a more solidly middle class area, one easily ends up in a suburb. And if one desires a house less than 20yrs old, one learns about unknown communities formerly believed to be in remote reaches beyond the boundaries of known civilization… (I jest but they are way out from the city center!)

And remote jobs aren’t a panacea. If one has kids in school, they can’t just uproot their family and move to a rural mountain town across the country on a whim.

I’ve also always been vexed that I can’t live near where I work. Aside from years of long commutes, the distance caused me to largely miss out on after-hours social events. Almost felt like a foreigner next to the people who lived closer.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But yes, many business owners (and the sorts of politicians they tend to vote) are irrationally attached to the idea that motorists are the ones who bring in the money If they're so irrational, go and start a business with no parking! I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm saying that you're not appreciating the forces that make people put up with commutes and parking in the first place. > pedestrians and public tran…

I understand and empathize with your frustration, but I did specifically say that there are some prerequisites for car-light city centers to work well. But I felt that you in turn unfairly generalized the unfortunate NA situation¹ when in fact in, say, Europe there are dozens of cities with pedestrian/transit-first historical centers and hundreds more where it would be perfectly achievable – and is slowly being achie…

San Francisco is a small city, but, at 6,655.4 people/km2, it's more dense than Berlin, at 4,126/km2.
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