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The strange case of Britain’s demise

economist.com

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Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#381

Post by rayiner »

Silhouette wrote: post #286
mjfl wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"democracy is under threat when people I don't like are democratically elected." Is it invisible to you how such statements are, themselves, bad for democracy?

The problem is that in many Western systems the people who gain power aren't democratically elected. In a real democracy the big challenge should be how to protect minorities from the tyranny of the majority. However most of us aren't even getting that far because the people who gain power often don't even have the support or even acceptance of the majority.

> In a real democracy the big challenge should be how to protect minorities from the tyranny of the majority.

Protection of minorities has nothing to do with democracy, and is often anti-Democratic. In the west, minorities are increasingly being invoked by elites as pretexts for strengthening anti-Democratic institutions and overruling majorities.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#382

Post by rayiner »

mathnmusic wrote: post #359
kibwen wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The grandparent is simplifying. The goal of a democracy is to respect the will of the majority while respecting the fundamental rights of the minority. If you're not doing the first step, respecting the will of the majority, then your democracy has already failed. A tyranny of the minority is strictly worse than a tyranny of the majority.

> A tyranny of the minority is strictly worse than a tyranny of the majority. Not if the minority opinion is right. The ground truth matters.

The whole point of democracy is that we don’t agree on what’s “the truth” and who is “right” and need a process for deciding what to do notwithstanding those disagreements.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#383

Post by jen20 »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #346
dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes voters should just buckle down and vote for a big left/right party. Voters are getting too much democracy for their own good!

Agree. Look at democracies where two parties dominate. The choices look awful. Where is the center represented in UK and US?

The center is represented in the UK by Labour, and by the Democrats in the US. The left is not represented in either country.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#384

Post by jen20 »

akiselev wrote: post #261
theGnuMe wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the Tories will make things better? I mean they've had enough time at bat that it is obvious they can't.

Didn't the Tories run on making things worse 13 years ago (austerity)? Thanks to COVID, Brexit, and the war in Ukraine, they have succeeded beyond anyone's wildest dreams.

Actually no, they did not run on that. They ran on a platform of “sharing the proceeds of growth”, and then changed their mind after getting into office. I believe the outgoing minister left a (lighthearted?) note saying “I’m afraid there is no money left”, which was used as a partial justification.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#385

Post by rayiner »

webmobdev wrote: post #199
dignick wrote: post #145

Like in the US, democracy in the United Kingdom is faltering. Our first past the post electoral system means the Tories can retain power with a third of the (active) electorate voting for them. Labour believes first past the post serves them well, but it doesn’t, because they would have been leading a coalition government in the last several elections under Proportional Representation. Instead it requires Labour to b…

> Like in the US, democracy in the United Kingdom is faltering. This is unfortunately not unique. India too has seen the rise of the right, and its democracy threatened and at a perilous stage. Many other countries have seen the rise of the right too. However, I feel this is a political pattern that can be observed historically and generationally, where the political spectrum switch between extremes of left and right…

What you’re seeing in India is democracy in action. Modi has the highest approval rating of any major world leader, nearly 80%: https://morningconsult.com/global-leader-approval. What you’re seeing is the majority of Indians overthrowing the minority of British-educated secular liberals that have ruled India since independence.

This is an excellent analysis of what’s happening in India: https://unherd.com/2021/04/the-culture-wars-of-post-colonial... (“The last of the post-partition generations are passing on, to be replaced by an indigenous leadership class more parochial and rooted in the subcontinent. The modern Indian culture war is a reflection of the decline of a once-secure, outward-looking cosmopolitan Western elite in the face of a rising Hindu nationalist movement, one that is relatively insular and inward looking. India is maturing, becoming culturally more self-confident, and shedding its post-colonial skin.”).

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#386

Post by Nursie »

asdadsdad wrote: post #336
prof-dr-ir wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would like to stress that the gap I speak of is not about stupidity or competence in itself; instead it is about being oblivious to one's own incompetence. For example, I think that people like Trump, Berlusconi, Cheney, etc. are not in the same class. They are certainly bad leaders, but largely because they are selfish grifters who care little about their country. On the other hand people like Cameron, Rees-Mogg,…

Sorry, Trump cares little about his country? Say what you want of him, and he definitely has a big ego to say the least, but I can't think of a more patriotic world leader of late than him. In fact, he's rightly aligned with the nationalist trend in politics that Brexit can be argued to take part in. "America first", remember?

Trump cares about Trump, the rest is window-dressing.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#387

Post by monero-xmr »

TapWaterBandit wrote: post #292
cecida wrote: post #254

I'm based in Ireland, and travel regularly to both Britain and California with work. I've always been shocked with the poverty and sense of systemic decline I witness in San Fran. Visiting London and being part of the tech industry can insulate you from just how grim things are in large parts of Britain as well though. Not saying Ireland is some sort of utopia by any means, and we have our own enormous challenges wit…

Ireland's prosperity is built on a house of cards to do with low corporation taxes. I wouldn't be surprised if Ireland faces serious economic challenges and maybe even decline in coming years as governments are getting increasingly serious about not allowing corporations to only register profits in overseas jurisdictions with low tax rates.

Why is low corporate taxes a bad thing? I want countries to compete on efficient government and low taxes. Otherwise it’s an endless cycle of stealing from private enterprise until there is nothing left.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#388

Post by epistasis »

justin66 wrote: post #105
photochemsyn wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pushing for the expansion of NATO and promoting a regime change operation in Ukraine that resulted in a government that attempted to ban the Russian language and which had an undeniable neo-Nazi element affiliated with it was not such a good idea in retrospect, was it? Imagine if a regime came to power in the USA, and it attempted to ban the Spanish language, eliminated Spanish-language versions of government documen…

> undeniable neo-Nazi element One of the things I've learned as an outsider while trying to distinguish between propaganda and reality vis a vis Ukraine is that the Nazis are pretty deniable.

It is quite a good marker! However, given the history of oppression, pogroms, and anti-Semitism not only in Ukraine but also Poland, Russia, and all of Europe, the lack of anti-Semitism in today's Ukrainian nationalism is a remarkable change from the past. The anti-Semitic statements regularly coming from Russian officials is quite a contrast. The Jewish people at Maidan that ironically referred to themselves as Judeo-Banderistas is quite a comment on this shift in Ukraine.

In fact, the first audience question in this talk by historian Marci Shore speaking to a Judaic Studies audience about the war and Zelenskyy, was "where's the anti-Semitism?" (1:03:00):

https://youtu.be/VBEZqFXtxEc

And her answer is that a civic identity is being developed in the nation, separate from ethnicity.

Also quite interesting is the assertion that this lie about modern day Ukrainian neo-Nazism came from the same propaganda factory that created the Hillary Clinton pizza pedopholoa conspiracy, and led to the whole Q thing.

One of my favorite lectures I've seen in the past months, if the topic grabs you.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#389

Post by TapWaterBandit »

dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #311
TapWaterBandit wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is interesting. Does Israel have parliamentary supremacy? In NZ we have MMP which is proportional but Supreme Court rulings on law do no "override" action as parliament is still supreme. So it can't override laws perse.

If you have a constitution (I'm not sure what happened after you rejected Australia's, but you're still in there and it's not too late to join) then the Supreme Court can override laws which it deems unconstitutional.

You are correct and it looks like I misunderstood my own countries system of government. Thank for the correction :)

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#390

Post by roenxi »

fader wrote: post #377
roenxi wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you reckon you have reduced your energy substantially since the 2000s? With no lifestyle compromises? A 25% drop is a lot more than a Pentium. They're poor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox#History covers most of the actual argument (and evidence) on why energy efficiency doesn't work that way. In an energy-rich environment the efficiency gains would go in to charging phones and tablets, or running ext…

Personally, yes -- I have significantly smaller gas and electric bills despite being in a larger house in a colder climate as a result of better construction and insulation and more energy-efficient appliances. I also moved to a city where I can walk or bike for daily tasks so I fill up my (more fuel-efficient) car's gas tank about a quarter as often. I'm not claiming this is the case generally across the UK -- I'm i…

Heh, ouch. Hopefully that is a lesson to me in phrase my questions more carefully.

However, I don't think that is quite enough to show that Jevons' paradox has been avoided - you'll find that with the savings from paying less for heating and your car you have a bit more money left over - what happened to it? Because it represents the energy that was freed up. It isn't enough to say "Well I spent less energy on heating and petrol so total energy consumption went down". Maybe you consumed the energy as a capital good, or maybe it just got shunted to someone else to use.

It is really difficult to convince an economy to use less energy without some sort of legal or physical barrier. We'll find that you haven't actually caused a reduction in energy overall once the dust settles - because you haven't done anything to reduce the amount of energy production so it isn't obvious why it would have dropped.

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