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The strange case of Britain’s demise

economist.com

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Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#191

Post by 908B64B197 »

dignick wrote: post #145

Like in the US, democracy in the United Kingdom is faltering. Our first past the post electoral system means the Tories can retain power with a third of the (active) electorate voting for them. Labour believes first past the post serves them well, but it doesn’t, because they would have been leading a coalition government in the last several elections under Proportional Representation. Instead it requires Labour to b…

>Now that the implications are becoming clear, a majority want to return to the EU

Why not simply have regional votes to separate from the UK and join the EU?

Scotland tried not that long ago.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#192

Post by reducesuffering »

hermitcrab wrote: post #83

Because of our first past the post system, the choice at the next election is effectively just: Conservative. Mostly talentless crooks who are looting the country as fast as they can. But are able to present a fairly united front, no matter how much they hate each other. Labour. A party that should probably be 2 parties. A left party and a centre party, who are unable to conceal their hatred for each other. Currently…

When you have the left getting 35% of the vote, the centrists getting 19%, and the right getting 30%, the right isn't working, by all means, compromise and try the centrists for a change. Why the left/Labour is unable to understand this, (throwing their weight to the centrists closer to their aims) and instead getting the right elected is astonishing.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#193

Post by kybernetikos »

tailspin2019 wrote: post #125
hermitcrab wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>not a failure of voters I disagree. That Brexit was a massive con was obvious to anyone paying the slightest bit of attention. But the electorate voted for it anyway.

I disagree. I voted against it, but to properly have an informed enough opinion on it really required a good understanding of our economy and how it interacted with that of the EUs. I believe Brexit was such a complex issue that most normal voters could not be expected to be able to be informed enough to actually weigh up the decision by any useful means other than relying on superficial emotional decision making or…

> Having said that, after some cursory reading on the topic, outside of the normal media spin, I believed that we were better in then out. But I disagree that it was trivially obvious for the average voter to determine this.

That might be true, but

> Clearly we didn’t make the most of these potential upsides though and we were never going to because the gvnt was clearly not competent enough to see such a complex transition through successfully.

Would have been a lot easier to determine, and was all that was needed to work out which way to vote.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#194

Post by aidos »

narag wrote: post #177
dignick wrote: post #145

Like in the US, democracy in the United Kingdom is faltering. Our first past the post electoral system means the Tories can retain power with a third of the (active) electorate voting for them. Labour believes first past the post serves them well, but it doesn’t, because they would have been leading a coalition government in the last several elections under Proportional Representation. Instead it requires Labour to b…

Electoral systems are very difficult to change. The party with enough votes to lead the change isn't going to be interested, because it's the system that put them in that position. Edit: So we're talking electoral systems, referenda have a big caveat. Usually you vote a goal, but you don't vote how it's going to be implemented. The brexit was sold as a measure against Brussels' regulation and taxes...

The Uk had a referendum in 2011 to change the system and voted fairly conclusively to stick with first past the post.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_United_Kingdom_Alternat...

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#195

Post by gghhzzgghhzz »

jodrellblank wrote: post #175
fshbbdssbbgdd wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the goal here to make Corbyn look good by comparison to Johnson? The median voter seems to think they are both unfit to lead, so it’s probably not an effective argument.

The goal is to refuse to let Conservatives leave that kind of spin uncontested. Everything the comment accused Corbyn of doing leading to "you people will never win in the real world" was done by BoJo, and it didn't stop him winning in the real world.

you should always ask the question. what was it that made it so difficult to elect someone like Corbyn, yet so easy to elect someone like Johnson?

That's the actual interesting question here.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#196

Post by nopenopenopeno »

pharmakom wrote: post #158
makomk wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article is part of the problem. UK politics and the media narratives around it have beeen utterly wrecked by the fight over Brexit and the attempts to give its creators the boot. For example, take this claim: "Investment is down and inflation higher than it would have been inside the European Union." The UK's inflation in the year to November 2022 was 10.7%, compared to 10.1% in the Eurozone. It just doesn't seem…

> The UK's inflation in the year to November 2022 was 10.7%, compared to 10.1% in the Eurozone. It just doesn't seem at all plausible that the UK would somehow have substantially lower inflation if it were in the EU Why not?

Did you even read the rest of their comment?

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#197

Post by gghhzzgghhzz »

fshbbdssbbgdd wrote: post #188
jodrellblank wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The goal is to refuse to let Conservatives leave that kind of spin uncontested. Everything the comment accused Corbyn of doing leading to "you people will never win in the real world" was done by BoJo, and it didn't stop him winning in the real world.

Some of the stuff you listed happened after Johnson won (or came to light after his victory), and before he resigned in disgrace, so doesn’t particularly serve the point you are making.

he wrote Seventy Two Virgins (the book having a character who loved money, had a hocked nose and jewish name) in 2004. he continuously wrote racist, sexist and homophobic comments in his articles since.

His relationship with Jennifer Arcuri and public spending implications was out before 2019.

It was all out in the public domain.

It was the media's jobs to ignore this and pretend the main issue was one case where Corbyn liked a photo on facebook that he later claimed he hadn't paid enough attention to and apologised for (Johnson has never apologised or been called on to apologise)

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#198

Post by llampx »

nailer wrote: post #31
Mezzie wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still interesting to think about given America's current gerontocracy. My last position put me in contact with a fair amount of local and state level politicians in the US and I'm very concerned about the talent bases/pipelines of the political class here. There but for the grace of God...

If you’re wondering too: gerontocracy is rule by the elderly. And that’s indeed a good description of the US right now.

Same in Germany

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#199

Post by webmobdev »

dignick wrote: post #145

Like in the US, democracy in the United Kingdom is faltering. Our first past the post electoral system means the Tories can retain power with a third of the (active) electorate voting for them. Labour believes first past the post serves them well, but it doesn’t, because they would have been leading a coalition government in the last several elections under Proportional Representation. Instead it requires Labour to b…

> Like in the US, democracy in the United Kingdom is faltering.

This is unfortunately not unique. India too has seen the rise of the right, and its democracy threatened and at a perilous stage. Many other countries have seen the rise of the right too. However, I feel this is a political pattern that can be observed historically and generationally, where the political spectrum switch between extremes of left and right, with brief periods of centrism. This can be observed in the last century too. The hard question is how long will this political effect last before we see it wane. Another question is how much the internet contributed to this and if we can do anything about it without trampling our rights.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#200

Post by hermitcrab »

reducesuffering wrote: post #192
hermitcrab wrote: post #83

Because of our first past the post system, the choice at the next election is effectively just: Conservative. Mostly talentless crooks who are looting the country as fast as they can. But are able to present a fairly united front, no matter how much they hate each other. Labour. A party that should probably be 2 parties. A left party and a centre party, who are unable to conceal their hatred for each other. Currently…

When you have the left getting 35% of the vote, the centrists getting 19%, and the right getting 30%, the right isn't working, by all means, compromise and try the centrists for a change. Why the left/Labour is unable to understand this, (throwing their weight to the centrists closer to their aims) and instead getting the right elected is astonishing.

The left of the Labour party seem to hate the centrists in the Labour party far more than they hate the Conservatives.
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