Remote startups will win the war for top talent • Hacker News Board

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#381

Post by biomcgary » Tue, Aug 23, 2022, 5:09 PM UTC

asoneth wrote: post #148

ghettoCoder wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Throughout my career it's been my experience that the type of people you describe are never the top performers, and seldom average performers. The ones craving social interactions often are just looking for distractions (like spending too long at the water cooler chatting) cause either they hate their job, hate the work, can't do the actual work or view work (exchange of labour/time for money) as a predominantly soci…

That has been nearly the exact opposite of my experience. As one advisor put it: researchers who prefer to keep their door closed often publish more papers over the course of a year, but researchers who keep their door open often publish more impactful research over the course of their lifetime.

Research impact is typically measured by peer driven citations. Peers also review papers and award grants. All of the above are easily gamed metrics by social engineers independently of the actual value of their work.

I've been working remotely for years with in-person visits on a monthly to quarterly basis. Brain-storming and planning in person definitely create value, but getting the work done is a different story. 10% inspiration (in person, maybe) and 90% perspiration (where they don't have to watch you sweat).

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#382

Post by cmrdporcupine » Tue, Aug 23, 2022, 5:09 PM UTC

hashbig wrote: post #344

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #235

I don't like working remote. I like working in an office. I find it more productive when my coworkers are right by me. Software development done well is an interactive, creative process. It is easier if you and I work together and can brainstorm on a whiteboard, or over lunch, and reduce the friction. And then go off to our respective cubes to hack it up and then share our work. That's the process I've found works be…

This is exactly where I am at now. I live in Canada and where I am at the local market of companies is just pathetic. I generally receive recruter emails from companies in my city offering a 25-50% of what I am making at a smaller shop remotely. I miss being in an office and having a connection to the people I work with, but I also refuse to compromise my salary, time, ergonomic home office, and flexibility to get th…

Where abouts are you, if you don't mind me asking? (You don't have to answer).

I'm rural just right outside Hamilton. The local market in Oakville/Burlington is sad. And right now it's not worth the commute into Toronto (used to live there).

I was getting excellent comp at Google Waterloo, but the drive was killing my body, and my soul was dead.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#383

Post by sbf501 » Tue, Aug 23, 2022, 5:10 PM UTC

vorpalhex wrote: post #334

sbf501 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I enjoy intense brainstorm jams on multi-wall whiteboards. In person. I guess I'm old. However, it seems like most programmers here are just javascript pushers. So dinking with a front-end button click handler for hours on end is something that doesn't really require collaboration.

Distributed systems architect reporting in. No I don't need you to show off how brilliant you are by "brainstorming" on a whiteboard in front of me. Please just prototype your solution.

No post body was provided.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#384

Post by esel2k » Tue, Aug 23, 2022, 5:14 PM UTC

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #235

I don't like working remote. I like working in an office. I find it more productive when my coworkers are right by me. Software development done well is an interactive, creative process. It is easier if you and I work together and can brainstorm on a whiteboard, or over lunch, and reduce the friction. And then go off to our respective cubes to hack it up and then share our work. That's the process I've found works be…

I am in the same shoes. I want to work in that domain doing my role. But I was trying to get into the companies in my area and that role was rare and with way to heavy competition, so I work remote for a company that was not able to find the talents in their area. Do I like it? No but I am not giving my life (10min everywhere by bicycle) and frankly the pay is above average.

I’ll keep doing until it last and will see how the world looks in 24months.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#385

Post by whatever1 » Tue, Aug 23, 2022, 5:15 PM UTC

vorpalhex wrote: post #324

whatever1 wrote: post #114

Remote work is great once a project has been scoped out and responsibilities have been assigned. You get to work on your own terms and be very productive, because let’s face it, modern open space offices are horrible places to get work done. But, if you are not an entry level employee, your objective is to find work. That means socializing with people in the company to understand where the opportunities lie, collecti…

If the work is not obvious, it's almost certainly not important. If you can't communicate, changing where people are located won't help. Please don't lock me into a room to stare at you while you slowly gather your thoughts. My time is important. Gather your thoughts and then present them. Don't make me babysit you.

If work is obvious then I don’t need to pay one 6 figures to do it.

Or to put it better, if work is obvious, someone has already done the work for you

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#386

Post by IshKebab » Tue, Aug 23, 2022, 5:17 PM UTC

throwawaysleep wrote: post #287

jofer wrote: post #141

I've been working 100% remotely for about 6.5 years now. Overall I love it. However, there are very real drawbacks that have taken me awhile to fully realize. For me, the primary one is that it's _way_ too easy for everyone to get deeply frustrated with each other. Social interactions and chit-chat lead to a better understanding of people and a more accurate mental model of what people actually mean when they say som…

Follow the Hacker News guidelines at work. > Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.

A noble goal but in practice you can't force people to do this.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#387

Post by biomcgary » Tue, Aug 23, 2022, 5:17 PM UTC

AdrianB1 wrote: post #279

danwee wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get this. If you have a coworker that enjoy having lunch with you... what's stopping you both doing so? I mean, even if you both work from home, you could still schedule a lunch together in the city, right? If you both live in different cities, well, I guess before COVID you weren't having lunch together that frequently. 100% remote doesn't dictate how (or with who) you eat lunch.

I am working remotely for 15 years, but from time to time I go to the local office; when I go to lunch, I just socialize with anyone that I see there and I either have an informal affinity (calling them friends may be too much) or I want to discuss a light business matter that does not require a formal meeting, but can be discussed over lunch. Also I have a coworker in my team that is in the same city, but the opposi…

Zero additional cost. You each pay 2 hours a day in commuting to get to the office. Take those two hours that you get back EVERY DAY and make friends within walking distance.

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#388

Post by asoneth » Tue, Aug 23, 2022, 5:18 PM UTC

vorpalhex wrote: post #317

asoneth wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can pay as much as you want but after a certain threshold I'm curious if there is a multiplier a company could pay you personally to convince you to endure the commuting stress and inflexibility of an in-person office? I.e. would you go back to a commute for 1.2x, 1.5x, 2x, or 3x your current salary?

Just answering for myself, but no, absolutely not. Especially not while the office remains an open floor plan with no noise isolation. I hate commuting, I hate shitty office lunches and interruptions totally ruin my focus. The things that people like about the office (long lunches with coworkers, spontaneous events, fun conversations) are literally my bane.

You raise an excellent point: I hope the shift to remote forces in-person companies to make their offices more attractive for workers (i.e. not open offices) to compete for the shrinking pool of people willing to work in-person.

But for the sake of argument imagine the least-bad in-person office you've worked at, and a company able to pay up to high six figures. Are you saying there's does not exist a salary in that range that would convince you to return?

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#389

Post by throwaway2037 » Tue, Aug 23, 2022, 5:19 PM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #365

jofer wrote: post #141

I've been working 100% remotely for about 6.5 years now. Overall I love it. However, there are very real drawbacks that have taken me awhile to fully realize. For me, the primary one is that it's _way_ too easy for everyone to get deeply frustrated with each other. Social interactions and chit-chat lead to a better understanding of people and a more accurate mental model of what people actually mean when they say som…

Although I've had the same observation, I've been observing it long before I started working remotely: I'd drive 30-45 minutes into an office and then spend the day emailing or IM-ing people in different cities, countries and continents. It's been over 20 years since even most of the people I interacted with on a daily basis were anywhere near the same physical location as I was.

Do you think your situation is common / average? I would say "no" from my experience.

If those people could sit next to you, do you think your collaboration would be higher?

Re: Remote startups will win the war for top talent

#390

Post by tshaddox » Tue, Aug 23, 2022, 5:19 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #26

"A study conducted on the main campus of a Fortune 500 company found that just 10 percent of all communications occurred between employees whose desks were more than 500 meters apart. This suggests that once companies span multiple floors, buildings, or campuses, they’ve already lost much of the collaborative value of being “in the office” together." This point often seems to get missed. If you're at a large company,…

Do you think that point is often missed? I would have said the opposite: that it's pretty obvious that most of the advantages of working in person would apply only to fairly small teams that can collaborate synchronously.