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Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

mitadmissions.org

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Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#381

our ability to accurately predict student academic success at MIT 02 Our research shows this predictive validity holds even when you control for socioeconomic factors that correlate with testing. It also shows that good grades in high school do not themselves necessarily translate to academic success at MIT if you cannot account for testing. Of course, we can never be fully certain how any given applicant will do: we…

The problem with testing isn't that it's inaccurate, but that it's a poor tool for the problem that it's being used to solve. You can't express "likelihood of success in college" in one number. Looking back on my time in college, the idea that my success could be predicted by my knowledge of geometry and vocabulary words is laughable. If there was a test that could accurately predict someone's chances of "success", b…

> the idea that my success could be predicted by my knowledge of geometry and vocabulary words is laughable.

You really should look into the g-factor research. This isn't about knowledge, but rather performance. It turns out that your performance on geometry and vocabulary tests is highly correlated with your performance on tests in such disparate fields as Classics and Music:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G_factor_(psychometrics)#Cogni...

The crazy result in general intelligence is that your performance in all these areas is highly correlated, and incredibly correlated with career success:

> "Research indicates that tests of g are the best single predictors of job performance, with an average validity coefficient of .55 across several meta-analyses of studies based on supervisor ratings and job samples."

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as extra-curricular activities go, like sports, etc., those aren't really the point. The point is for the candidate to demonstrate that they can accomplish significant things other than academics. This can be anything. For me, I didn't do sports, or any school extracurriculars. What I did do was run a small business (paper route), used the money to fund my hotrodding efforts, was an Eagle scout (back in the da…

Intention is irrelevant, the outcome is the same. A parent driving a kid to lacrosse practice every Wednesdays and Fridays shows as much potential to accomplishments as a parent asking their kid to help them with their under the table car mechanic job every weekend. Yet I bet only the former is evaluated as significant. I wonder why that is.

Your bet is based on anything? The second story is a potential sob story that plays better, barring subjective classist biases counteracting. That only points to objective test scores being a better measure.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#383
I'm grateful for the SAT/ACT being present when I was in high school(HS). Without it I might not have a decent education, mostly b/c I was drifting along and paying little attention to life.

Junior year I had high PSAT scores and received letters from various universities expressing interest. Yet I hadn't even considered what I would do after HS. I was amazed to see anyone expressing interest, decided it was a fluke and dropped it all in the trash.

Next year I scored high on the SAT and unexpectedly received multiple offers for full scholarships, room and board et al from universities. I asked around and realized my peers had been applying to colleges for months while I, the quintessential apostle of Lao Tzu (OK, I'm lazy!), had done absolutely nothing.

I hesitated to look a gift horse in the mouth, especially when there were several. I picked one and was off to college. My Dad was pleased to get off the hook for college costs, Mom was proud, but I mostly felt sorry for friends who had to work hard to get into university.

tl;dr: PSAT and SAT made getting into college easy for me and I am thankful.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#384
post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don’t. I’ve never been asked a O() that requires calculus. The vast majority is just understanding if it’s log(n), n, nlog(n), n^2, etc. Discrete, sure, but Calc? Not for most.

You don't really need to know calculus (derivatives and such) but it's true that big O notation requires some sort of "asymptotic thinking" which is probably only explicitly taught in a calculus course.

That’s part of Pre-Calculus or general mathematics coursework at most US high schools.

Beyond that it’s a very simple idea you can cover at the same time as your doing Big O notation in the first place.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#385

I am so happy to see this. I went to high school in a bit of a backwater in the US. People don’t really go to selective colleges or care much about applying. It was only doing very well on standardized tests and spending time on the internet looking for info about colleges that led me to believe I could go to one of these places. I got into several and attended one, and I believe it greatly positively changed my life…

They might be the least gameable, but this is kind of a “bare minimum” for diversity/equity practices. It is the cheapest way to get little bit of reliable signal.

Because let's be clear about the standardized test situation. Test takers had time to take the test, they weren't doing work on the side for their parents instead to make ends meet. They had transportation to the test location, they were able to pay the fees, and they were not being discouraged from college as “we can never afford that, I’m sorry.”

Standardized tests themselves have mostly tested not IQ or domain knowledge, but how anxious you are taking tests. This does predict later academic performance, sure, but to say that this anxiety is disconnected from demographics sounds like a rather strong claim. Instead you have that it is more disconnected than GPA and essays and extracurriculars which is not saying much.

If you want to be serious about diversity and equity, you invest some actual cash into it... The easiest way is talent scouting, you send people (trained, you can reduce bias) to underrepresented communities and allow folks there to interview with them. My wife worked at place that did this, it sounds financially intractable at first but it scales to whatever budget you want to put into it... Her place would send folks out to like Singapore as well as to inner city schools. But the point is that you have to leave the door open to the people who can come to you, but you also go to the people who cannot.

(This is also a startup idea... The reason the schools don't send out their best is that there are too many colleges, the reason the colleges don't canvas the schools that there are too many schools, these are obviously inverse problems that could cancel each other out in the appropriate sort of network, the recruiters just need to be common to both. The problem is getting people to pay for it—the schools who you want most are precisely the underfunded ones that cannot pay you, the colleges meanwhile are less willing to go in on these sorts of weird experiments, they, they have an admissions department already. So the idea has a dangerous scope creep where you want to also start a college so that you can dogfood... Not a degree-granting educational institution in itself, maybe, but just a “first year at college” school which sells its students to other top colleges. Obviously that's a much riskier investment for VCs.)

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#386

I am so happy to see this. I went to high school in a bit of a backwater in the US. People don’t really go to selective colleges or care much about applying. It was only doing very well on standardized tests and spending time on the internet looking for info about colleges that led me to believe I could go to one of these places. I got into several and attended one, and I believe it greatly positively changed my life…

> Removing admission tests was a huge slap in the face to social mobility out of the middle class.

I agree, but arguably the benefits of the SAT with regard to class mobility is less than it was when it was introduced.

The heritability of IQ, combined with assortative mating, means that increasingly class divides are forming around differences in IQ. I think many people are rightly concerned that this will eventually result in simply a different entrenched class hierarchy.

I still think MIT should use the SAT, but the problem of maintaining class mobility is one we should continue to assess.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#387

My problem with SAT/ACT actually has nothing to do with the test itself. I grew up very poor in suburban middle of nowhere and even with a waiver for the fee, I had no way of actually getting to a testing center. Parents worked 24/7 to make ends meet, no real public transport and this was before Uber and Lyft. The real culprit here is the lack of public infrastructure.

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Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#388

My problem with SAT/ACT actually has nothing to do with the test itself. I grew up very poor in suburban middle of nowhere and even with a waiver for the fee, I had no way of actually getting to a testing center. Parents worked 24/7 to make ends meet, no real public transport and this was before Uber and Lyft. The real culprit here is the lack of public infrastructure.

That's not the political argument being made against them though.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#389
post #207
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whites also have lower average scores on them. Lower than Asians and Jews. At the elite level this would make a huge difference. At the state level not at all.

What do you mean by "whites". American "whites"? The last IQ report has many Asian countries at the top followed by "white" European countries. Whites and blacks are such generic terms. There are many different types of white, black, asian, etc peoples that have different cultures and phenotypes based on the region. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/average-i...

That site is a mess. Shows a chart where the average IQ is 82, links to a page saying the average IQ is 100 (which is the original design). Also cites a eugenicist and thinks that worthy of a passing footnote. Frankly, I wouldn't trust anything I read there.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#390
post #273
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue exactly otherwise... with the advent of the web platform and frameworks like .net, the vast majority (and I mean like 95%) of developers will never touch anything ML related in their careers. I mean, I get that this is MIT and many of their students will end up working with ML, but applying that globally to CS is nonsense. Back when I was studying CS (cze) more than a decade ago, we had to pass linear a…

This is exactly why so many people (myself included) advocate for a pure "software engineering" degree at more universities. Let people who are interested study graph theory, combinatorics, linear algebra, advanced probability and statistics and whatever else. For the rest, provide a path to be ready for an industry job building websites and applications, which is what 90% of graduates will end up doing. Every other…

While I spend 99% of my time doing pure "software engineering", I'm pretty grateful to have the advanced probability / graph theory / combinatorics etc. background because it helps me envision possibilities I wouldn't otherwise be able to.

That being said, there are probably lighter ways of teaching that instinct than full-depth classes. I try to listen to podcasts these days as a way of expanding my horizons.

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