Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

mitadmissions.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

201–210 of 1001 posts

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#201

Post by commandlinefan »

paulmd wrote: post #21
LewisVerstappen wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's far easier for rich students to game GPA, college essays and extracurriculars than it is for them to game the SAT. For GPA, they can hire a private tutor in the subject they're struggling with. There are services out there that will basically write your english essay for you / do your math/science homework. For college essays, they can hire college counselors to help them draft a compelling essay. For extra curr…

I don't really have evidence for this, but it's always felt like SAT/ACT coaching doesn't improve scores so much as get rid of some of the "dumb mistakes" that cost you score. It's gonna help you when the test writer was playing some gotcha tricks with phrasing or whatever, but if you don't understand the material, even narrowing it down to a 50/50 isn't going to get you a good score, and if you truly don't understan…

> SAT/ACT coaching doesn't improve scores so much as get rid of some of the "dumb mistakes"

If so, that still doesn't imply that rich kids with access to private tutors will necessarily do better on these tests than poor kids - just that anybody with the motivation to read a test-prep book will.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#202

Post by dayvid »

david38 wrote: post #183
LewisVerstappen wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's far easier for rich students to game GPA, college essays and extracurriculars than it is for them to game the SAT. For GPA, they can hire a private tutor in the subject they're struggling with. There are services out there that will basically write your english essay for you / do your math/science homework. For college essays, they can hire college counselors to help them draft a compelling essay. For extra curr…

I live in a very rich town, like super rich. I work in tech so am rich by the standards of general population, but by the standards of Silicon Valley. My child did very well on the ACT. All she did was buy a $35 practice book, which almost anyone can do. Literally this was it. Furthermore, she doesn’t know of a single friend or acquaintance that hired a private tutor. All the nay-sayers belly-ache about this but for…

I agree. I spent some time as a Kaplan tutor. The students in my experience fell into a few buckets:

1. They already know the material/are serious and would do fine without tutoring (maybe some small help here and there) 2. They kind of care, but need structure to study. They probably wouldn't study or study effectively without being in a class or having someone for accountability. 3. They don't care and their parents are paying for someone to babysit them to study

Most students were in camps 2 and 3.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#203

Post by JustLurking2022 »

globuous wrote: post #4
paulpauper wrote: post #2

our ability to accurately predict student academic success at MIT 02 Our research shows this predictive validity holds even when you control for socioeconomic factors that correlate with testing. It also shows that good grades in high school do not themselves necessarily translate to academic success at MIT if you cannot account for testing. Of course, we can never be fully certain how any given applicant will do: we…

What's surprising though, is that APs and similar exams are not enough. In the UK, I though they essentially looked at A Level results, which are much more representative of what you'll actually study at uni. But I guess both SAT/ACTs & APs must be a better measure that just APs. I just remember fucking hating studying for the SATs though. So boring. SAT IIs were somewhat fun to study for though. In France for instan…

AP scores and SAT II's are highly subject to the quality of instruction. I had several teachers who treated it as a more advanced class than honors, but felt no need to teach to the rubric for the test specifically.

I aced the SAT and ACT but had a decent number of mediocre AP scores because I was seeing the material for the first time when I opened the test. Got to college and after a single 45 minute lecture covering the gap material, I'm pretty sure I could have scored a 5. Ended up making for several easy A's freshman year.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#204

Post by [deleted] »

paulpauper wrote: post #2

our ability to accurately predict student academic success at MIT 02 Our research shows this predictive validity holds even when you control for socioeconomic factors that correlate with testing. It also shows that good grades in high school do not themselves necessarily translate to academic success at MIT if you cannot account for testing. Of course, we can never be fully certain how any given applicant will do: we…

[deleted]

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#205

Post by raunak »

ShaveTheTurtles wrote: post #157

A lot of folks focus on act/sat scores when talking about diversity when really these ivy league schools shouldn't have an express lane for legacy entrants. If you are trying to be different than how it was previously, how can you expect that to happen when you give preference to folks that benefited previously?

Without legacy and the prestige and the entire shebang of old English style college, the Ivy Leagues aren't the Ivy League.

I agree with you that eliminating legacy would solve the issue of making the school different - it's never gonna happen though, so there's no point in talking about it honestly.

Also yeah, MIT is not a legacy giving school

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#207

Post by nafix »

sin7 wrote: post #181
slavboj wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because blacks have lower average scores on them.

Whites also have lower average scores on them. Lower than Asians and Jews. At the elite level this would make a huge difference. At the state level not at all.

What do you mean by "whites". American "whites"? The last IQ report has many Asian countries at the top followed by "white" European countries. Whites and blacks are such generic terms. There are many different types of white, black, asian, etc peoples that have different cultures and phenotypes based on the region.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/average-i...

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#208

Post by WalterBright »

ar_lan wrote: post #91
LewisVerstappen wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's far easier for rich students to game GPA, college essays and extracurriculars than it is for them to game the SAT. For GPA, they can hire a private tutor in the subject they're struggling with. There are services out there that will basically write your english essay for you / do your math/science homework. For college essays, they can hire college counselors to help them draft a compelling essay. For extra curr…

For anecdotal/lived experience, to your point: The rich kids in my (public) school were the ones afforded not only tutors, but also just the insight into extra-curriculars. They were the ones who had parents who knew to sign them up for college courses at ~15-16 years old to ensure they could maximize their GPA (5.0 scale, so getting a 5.0 was literally impossible unless you did this). This created a competitive disa…

As far as extra-curricular activities go, like sports, etc., those aren't really the point. The point is for the candidate to demonstrate that they can accomplish significant things other than academics.

This can be anything. For me, I didn't do sports, or any school extracurriculars. What I did do was run a small business (paper route), used the money to fund my hotrodding efforts, was an Eagle scout (back in the days when that was something), etc.

Basically, you just gotta find something non-trivial to do that demonstrates motivation.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#209

Post by caffeine »

rg111 wrote: post #130

> as a result, not having SATs/ACT scores to consider tends to raise socioeconomic barriers to demonstrating readiness for our education It all come down to me to what this point touches. When you have a test, you have something definite to prepare for. Even if you do not have dedicated mentors or well-wishing, caring teachers, you simply know there is a test that significantly improves your chances for MIT. When you…

The no-test policy is espoused by two groups who find themselves to be unlikely allies: naive progressives and actual racists.

The naive progressives think what you’d expect: “Minorities and poor people can’t possibly be expected to do well on anything objective, so it’s unfair to test them”. It is bigotry, but at least it’s well-meaning.

The actual racists are more cynical: “I don’t want Yale to be 67% Asian.” Obviously, this is even worse.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#210

Post by caffeine »

david38 wrote: post #183
LewisVerstappen wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's far easier for rich students to game GPA, college essays and extracurriculars than it is for them to game the SAT. For GPA, they can hire a private tutor in the subject they're struggling with. There are services out there that will basically write your english essay for you / do your math/science homework. For college essays, they can hire college counselors to help them draft a compelling essay. For extra curr…

I live in a very rich town, like super rich. I work in tech so am rich by the standards of general population, but by the standards of Silicon Valley. My child did very well on the ACT. All she did was buy a $35 practice book, which almost anyone can do. Literally this was it. Furthermore, she doesn’t know of a single friend or acquaintance that hired a private tutor. All the nay-sayers belly-ache about this but for…

The $250k to put a totally unqualified student through school would pay for a lot of test prep hours at some impoverished schools.

It would likely take about 10 contact hours (1h/week, 10 weeks), basically enough coaching so that the result is not artificially low through under-preparation.

Let’s say it costs $100/hr all-in to coach 10 kids. So for $1k you can get 10 applications from motivated, underprivileged kids whose SATs are representative of their ability.

For one $50k annual ride you could run this in 50 low income schools and get 500 underprivileged applicants and then actually admit some of them who might benefit.

Rather than refusing to test, and wasting those resources supporting some kid who obviously won’t hack it.

Post reply on HN