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The EARN IT act is back, and it’s more dangerous than ever

cyberlaw.stanford.edu

381–390 of 520 posts

Re: The EARN IT act is back, and it’s more dangerous than ever

#381
post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a continuum. Just because Gary Webb "committed suicide" with multiple gunshot wounds to the head doesn't mean the CIA in the 01990s was just as unaccountable as Beria's NKVD, much less just as oppressive. Dan Rather's CBS Evening News was no Wikileaks , much less Wikipedia, but it wasn't Pravda either. Serpico got shot in the face for being the first honest cop in the US, but you could still do business in New Y…

Just FYI the zero-padded date thing is incredibly distracting and weird. (Yes I know there’s some “foundation” pushing this, but still).

You say that as if it's a bad thing.

Re: The EARN IT act is back, and it’s more dangerous than ever

#382
To start, I absolutely don't think this bill is good, BUT I think there might be potential for some interesting silver lining.

Let's say it's passed and big platforms such as FB need to start heavily policing their users because they become responsible for all published content. This level of moderation is nearly impossible to achieve, so they are forced to heavily limit participation (you can only post a limited amount, posts need to be confirmed before becoming public, AI filters auto-reject various topics etc.).

Users are pissed and move to platforms with "more freedom", but nothing lasts - as soon as they grow, they all hit those same issues.

Because all the responsibility is on the publisher, the only realistic solutions are smaller and more distributed communities. You can self publish your blog or create an invite-only forum/chatroom/Mastodon instance for your friends/family/neighbourhood.

Because now everyone is doing this, hosting providers, ISPs and software publishers adapt by improving UX and reducing technical barrier to entry. It's basically a reneissance of oldschool internet.

Whaddya say, too optimistic?

Re: The EARN IT act is back, and it’s more dangerous than ever

#383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was mostly joking to prove a point, but I appreciate you saying that. I was just trying to cool the debate a bit, not stir the pot. I’ll admit I may have inflamed tensions myself, and for that I apologize. You seem to be arguing in good faith, even if I disagree with your position. You seem like a decent person. I guess I’m more of a discordian, or a culture jammer type, and I view the kinds of conspiracies you’re…

I appreciate you saying that. And I'm a big ol' Robert Anton Wilson fan, a life-long ACLU contributor, and someone who views free speech as the only way to disinfect hate, racism and lies. And I am very much talking in good faith; this is what I believe. I just think that free speech doesn't have to be equally easy. I remember when news channels in the US had to give equal time to opposite political parties. I watche…

> The right to free speech should be absolute. But there's no right to be heard.

There’s no right to be heard, true. Yet, these are users complying with TOS. Beyond that, do the users have any obligation to not spread content that they haven’t validated? It seems an unreasonable burden to place on users who don’t post content for consumption by folks who care about such things. Can you blame people for speaking their mind and playing to their audience? Maintaining the platform and only posting constructive, mainstream content only appeals to a certain kind of person, and they may never reach their intended audience with such messaging, warping and contorting their content into something else entirely, potentially alienating the very people they are trying to reach in the first place.

I’m a descriptivist in the linguistic sense, and when it comes to free speech. More is better. Full stop.

I remember when everything was hard online. I don’t wish for those days to return, especially just to comply with misguided, ineffective government mandates at the behest of megacorps and special interest lobby groups.

Re: The EARN IT act is back, and it’s more dangerous than ever

#384

While this bill is strongly opposed by the Internet Society, ACLU, CDT, and EFF, the critiques I've read don't get much into the real "why" behind this legislation continuing to be pushed so forcefully. The pretext is, of course, "protect the children" and more generally law-and-order with a bonus side-helping of "stop those awful social media giants." While these justifications are (hopefully) obvious misdirection t…

But democracy existed before whatsapp, why cant it exist after ? I mean I agree with what you say it s convenient to anonymously communicate private thought over public telecom fibres, but... I mean... democracy and "freedom" as a Nation citizrns are unrelated to this, completely unrelated.

Taking away freedom of speech and freedom of press, just because it's no longer talking to my neighbor on the corner or smashing ink into paper is the issue.

Re: The EARN IT act is back, and it’s more dangerous than ever

#385
post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, to be clear, he is worried that in 7000 years time it's the _date_ part of his comment that will be hard for a human, or computer, to parse? While English from 1000 years ago would be unintelligible to most of us now... And how long is HN gonna keep these threads? I was worried about the NSA but now I'm worried about dang.

Are you surprised that on HN, of all places, we find a date format pedant? :-D

And a wrong one, at that.

Re: The EARN IT act is back, and it’s more dangerous than ever

#386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A back door marked ‘staff only’ doesn’t actually know who is staff and who isn’t. Which is my you use cryptography instead of just a sign.

What one can make, another can break. Skeleton keys are impossible to secure.

By that logic so is the two parties' decryption keys. Can we make a third party whose decryption key is more secure than the others? I suspect it is possible.

Re: The EARN IT act is back, and it’s more dangerous than ever

#387
post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USA has 900k covid deaths from 74M cases. The real number of cases are likely to be double that, but it's still a very high rate - from the richest country in the world.

If the real number of cases is double that, then that would be a death rate of ... about 0.6%. And not everyone catches the disease in one pandemic wave, so the total population death rate in the US isn't going to reach that. And the idea that the US is going to roll over and shrug when their hospital system falls apart is nonsensical. It is one of those sounds-scary-not-likely scenarios that doesn't play out at scal…

The hospital system literally vanishing is not really a possible failure condition. It just doesn't work like that, medical staff will always keep trying to treat whoever they can with whatever resources they have.

The hospital system being overwhelmed looks like what you said, "some people didn't get treated". Triage assigns resources to patients based on need, if there are more patients (because there are more COVID cases) or less resources (because medical staff are getting sick too), that still doesn't mean no one is getting treated, just that people who would have gotten treated sooner before now have to wait. And while they're waiting, some of those people would die. People were worried about ventilators, but medical staff can't be quickly scaled up in an emergency either.

Also, of course, all the statistics you're mentioning are with the response.

Re: The EARN IT act is back, and it’s more dangerous than ever

#388
post #292
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These people seem incapable of understanding the existential threat to free society and democracy posed by limiting everyone's ability to communicate private thoughts. The existential threat this bill poses to free society and democracy is exactly why they're supporting it. It's not some accidental side effect. They're opposed to the existence of free society and democracy because it limits government power, which…

Free society means limited government, and the only way for the government to be in favor of that is for the government to vote against its own interests. I would argue that a free society protects people’s rights, and this is impossible without a strong government. As for voting against its own interests, the government in a true democracy is quite literally the will of the people. We get what we vote for. So if peo…

That is the popular ideology that was used to justify most of history's worst atrocities.

Piet Hein, who coordinated the Danish Resistance (which was, arguably, the will of the Danish people, though even today the Dansk Folkeparti has seats in parliament) satirized the situation in this grook, entitled Majority Rule, in 01969:

His party was the Brotherhood of Brothers,

and there were more of them than of the others.

That is, they constituted that minority,

which formed the greater part of the majority.

Within the party, he was of the faction,

that was supported by the greater fraction.

And in each group, within each group, he sought

the group that could command the most support.

The final group had finally elected,

a triumvirate whom they all respected.

Now of these three, two had the final word,

because the two could overrule the third.

One of these two was relatively weak,

so one alone stood at the final peak.

He was: THE GREATER NUMBER of the pair

which formed the most part of the three that were

elected by the most of those whose boast

it was to represent the most of most

of most of most of the entire state —

or of the most of it at any rate.

He never gave himself a moment's slumber

but sought the welfare of the greatest number.

And all the people, everywhere they went,

knew to their cost exactly what it meant

to be dictated to by the majority.

But that meant nothing, — they were the minority.

The idea of limited government I described, which is fundamental to liberalism, comes essentially from Locke's Two Treatises of Government in 01689. Rousseau responded in 01762 with the idea you so ably summarize, the absolute sovereignty of the "will of the people", in The Social Contract, calling it "the general will": https://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/roussea.... Rousseau already recognized the failure mode Hein skewers in the grook above, but he hoped to avoid the formation of political parties.

Condorcet's paradox showed that the will of the people was incoherent in 01785: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condorcet_paradox

In 01793, the will of the people decreed that the streets of Paris should run red with the blood of France's greatest and most honorable; Robespierre the Incorruptible carried out this Terror justified by Rousseau: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Terror

In 01850, the will of the people established the Fugitive Slave Act, requiring all government officials throughout the US to assist kidnappers of fugitive slaves, sending them back to the most abominable system of slavery humanity had ever known, a system itself established by the will of the people of the Southern States: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugitive_Slave_Act_of_1850. A few short years later, the will of the people of the US decreed that those people should start killing one another en masse, ending with about a million dead, but four million delivered out of bondage.

In 01918, the will of the people created the Solovki prison camp, which grew into GULAG over the next decades, through which 18 million people would be forced to labor for the will of the people; some 1.6 million died: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D0%A3%D0%9B%D0%90%D0%93

In 01933, the will of the German people passed the Enabling Act, making Adolf Hitler dictator; before the war was out, the will of the people would murder ten million people in concentration camps: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933

In 01951, Kenneth Arrow published his Impossibility Theorem, showing that the idea of the "will of the people" was incoherent in a far more comprehensive sense than Condorcet had ever imagined: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow's_impossibility_theorem

In 01958 the will of the Chinese people manifested in the Great Leap Forward, which Mao justified by explicit appeals to Rousseau's ideals. The largest famine in human history, or possibly the second largest, was the result. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward

In 01974 Hayek was awarded the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences for explaining how voters and government institutions are unavoidably laboring in ignorance of much of the information needed to make the decisions that are optimal for the general welfare, while the price system can approximate those optimal decisions more closely: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Use_of_Knowledge_in_Societ...

The list of atrocities justified by the will of the people goes on and on: the Killing Fields, the Holodomor, the US system of mass incarceration, the Tutsi genocide, the Congolese civil war, the North Korean dictatorship, and on and on. You might protest that these atrocities were not in fact popular, that dictators were lying about what the people wanted; but by and large you would be incorrect. In other cases the policy of establishing limitless state power was popular, but the atrocities in which it inevitably culminated were not.

That is the policy Rousseau advocated, and it is the policy you are advocating in your comment. In 01762 the idea that the will of the people could never err and would always promote the general welfare was an understandable error, but today we have ample evidence, evidence written in rivers of blood, that shows otherwise. Liberalism—giving individual people great freedom to dissent from the will of the people—works less badly. I know it's not very inspiring to chant "Our system works less badly!" but that's the best we can do so far.

This does not necessarily imply "shrinking government", but it does imply strong limits on the powers in the hands of that government.

Re: The EARN IT act is back, and it’s more dangerous than ever

#389
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everybody thinks they're incorruptible, and they often extend that to institutions they identify with. Very, very few people have ever honestly grappled with their shadow side. Even if you do, you may still prefer your own shadow side to that of whoever your opponents are.

> Everybody thinks they're incorruptible It chafes me a little to see this so often phrased as something "everybody" thinks. There are enough people who feel otherwise in my social circles that it's pretty easy for me to consider this as a shockingly dumb assumption for a person to hold. Though I do acknowledge that you're probably close to right from a purely numerical perspective.

I agree.

Re: The EARN IT act is back, and it’s more dangerous than ever

#390
post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m surprised you’re happy about the pass. the only thing the pass does is insure the minority of people who didn’t want the vaccine are forced to be vaccinated. I suppose you didn’t have to be forced, so why do you care ?

I've lost a grandma, auntie and am about to lose a father-in-law. All have cancer that was either detected late or was not operable because of there being no IC spaces available. All because the hospitals and IC are full of people who chose not to vaccinate but who do get priority for medical care.

Perhaps the healthcare industry reacted poorly.

The amount of yearly cancer deaths is similar, but higher, than Covid.

I’m more familiar with hospitals giving cancer patients ultimatums to face icu, surgeries, and intensive treatments alone - and I saw this in an underwhelmed hospital well before there were vaccines.

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