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The case against masks at school

theatlantic.com

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Re: The case against masks at school

#381

Post by taylodl »

concinds wrote: post #334
taylodl wrote: post #304

General observation from reading the comments - the folks on HN must not have many friends working in medicine for if they had they'd realize those friends are swamped and burned-out. They'd also know that pretty much the only condition we're treating nowadays is Covid. Surgeries are continuing to be postponed - including surgeries that can lead to worse problems down the road such as removing cancerous tumors. And i…

Genuinely asking - What's stopping a country, or hospital, from saying: "we'll prioritize cancer patients, scheduled surgeries, normal operation; you come in with Covid respiratory distress, and we're full? Go away." From the government data I've found, Covid patients are about 5-20% of emergency department patients in the US[0]; in Switzerland that leaves a healthy amount of free beds[1] (though I'm sure staffing is…

I've asked my friends working in medicine the same thing. What if hospitals were to start turning away those who are willingly unvaccinated? I haven't been able to get a clear answer but the basic theme I hear is you can't, state law prohibits that. Of course the law can be changed, but what legislature is going to do that? This is where politics enters the fray. They'd rather kick the can down the road and bring in the National Guard to help run the hospitals than turn away patients and potentially face voter wrath.

Re: The case against masks at school

#382

Post by not2b »

ngngngng wrote: post #275

Funny to watch the Atlantic change directions on COVID over the last few months. I go back and forth on masks. In general I find them to be a minor inconvenience, although I believe they're more inconvenient for me than most because I'm blind and no matter what I do they always fog up my glasses. But while masks themselves are mildly inconvenient, harsh mask mandates and restrictions become much more of an annoyance…

The Atlantic has lots of writers (on staff as well as guest writers) who have different positions. They do seem to be running a lot more "I'm done with this" articles lately.

Re: The case against masks at school

#383

Post by AlexandrB »

champagnois wrote: post #320
elsonrodriguez wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of the test aerosols they use to test N95s and similar are smaller than the coronavirus. Also they have done virus measurements from sick people through masks that prove there is filtration happening.

N95s work via an electric polarity of the filter. This charge is what captures the viruses. Filtration fades when the charge is lost. I don't need to see your studies because I have helped build and certify N95 factories and know a lot about it. The masks arent usable for long and arent reusable, either. Cloth masks do nothing and are not a consideration to any serious adult.

> N95s work via an electric polarity of the filter

...as well as mechanical filtration[1].

> To minimize the effect of electrostatic attraction, we used isopropanol (IPA) to remove nearly all dipole charges in the filter layer (Figure Figure77C) and measured the filtration efficiency. The filtration efficiencies of N95 respirators after IPA treatment decreased about 7–15% after removing all dipole charges. Such decreases in filtration efficiencies indicated that electrostatic charges contributed to the filtration performance.

Others here have pointed to studies RE the efficacy of cloth masks. Which, while not great, is not 0 either. I'm willing to be wrong, but do you have any research showing that "Cloth masks do nothing"?

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC7724761/

Re: The case against masks at school

#384

Post by perardi »

taylodl wrote: post #304

General observation from reading the comments - the folks on HN must not have many friends working in medicine for if they had they'd realize those friends are swamped and burned-out. They'd also know that pretty much the only condition we're treating nowadays is Covid. Surgeries are continuing to be postponed - including surgeries that can lead to worse problems down the road such as removing cancerous tumors. And i…

Yes, and?

The hospital case load is overwhelmingly, screamingly, massively dominated by the elderly unvaccinated.

https://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Documents/1600/coronavirus/...

Given the extremely contagious nature of Omicron, what plausible way do we have to prevent these individuals from getting COVID and using hospital space? And don't say masking up kids—because if they haven't gotten vaccinated, then why do you think they themselves would wear masks and social distance to prevent themselves from getting COVID?

I have seen no plausible modeling that shows even high level of masking would significantly blunt the spread of this.

https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america?view...

So why make the kids put on hair shirts I mean masks?

Oh, and by the way: I have plenty of sympathy towards health care workers. I am dating a nurse. I have doctors, nurses, and paramedics as friends. I have extreme empathy towards them, and full seething burning anger towards the unvaccinated septuagenarians ruining our health care system. And the rest of our economy while they're at it.

Re: The case against masks at school

#385

Post by TameAntelope »

naasking wrote: post #375
TameAntelope wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about individual risk, it's about collective risk, and honestly it's quite selfish to consider the COVID risks only with regard to yourself. And Omicron has made it so the risk profile is effectively the same as when this pandemic started; you will get it, you will be contagious for a time, and you will infect others. By looking at that risk and accepting it, you're throwing away the work you've previously p…

> It's not about individual risk, it's about collective risk, and honestly it's quite selfish to consider the COVID risks only with regard to yourself. Is it wrong to be selfish? That seems be an implicit assumption in your argument.

Yes, it's wrong to be so selfish that you can't experience a minor inconvenience to mitigate the risk of causing another person's death or severe injury.

Re: The case against masks at school

#386

Post by adolph »

autoexec wrote: post #314
champagnois wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never mind the fact that they are not rated to filter viruses.

It doesn't matter. Putting literally anything in front of your virus spewing face hole is going to help to some degree. It's not as if the crook of our arms are rated to filter viruses, but that hasn't stopped health organizations all over the world from recommending the vampire cough for years. It's true that a mask alone isn't enough to guarantee anyone's safety and while community spread is high sending kids into…

> not as if the crook of our arms are rated to filter viruses

People don't shake elbows (unless they have a really intimate elbow bump).

Re: The case against masks at school

#387

Post by uoaei »

Zanneth wrote: post #273
elsonrodriguez wrote: post #183

There have been numerous studies showing that mechanically N95 and equivalent masks can greatly reduce the emission of coronavirus and influenza, and can also greatly reduce the intake of coronavirus-sized particles. That's why these types of articles always focus on mask mandate effectiveness instead of mask effectiveness. How many schools with mask mandates also have their lunch indoors with poor ventilation? Can y…

It is the responsibility of public health to take all of these variables into account before mandating countermeasures. The fact that people are constantly placed in situations where mask effectiveness is reduced or in some cases completely eliminated should be evidence that mask mandates are pointless when applied at scale.

Very confusing how people seem to keep making the illogical jump from "individuals follow a mask mandate improperly / mask mandates are insufficiently specific to cover the actual means of transmission" to "mask mandates are pointless".

Mask mandates done poorly are pointless. Obviously. But it is completely absurd to conclude that mask mandates writ large are pointless.

Re: The case against masks at school

#388

Post by dec0dedab0de »

concinds wrote: post #334
taylodl wrote: post #304

General observation from reading the comments - the folks on HN must not have many friends working in medicine for if they had they'd realize those friends are swamped and burned-out. They'd also know that pretty much the only condition we're treating nowadays is Covid. Surgeries are continuing to be postponed - including surgeries that can lead to worse problems down the road such as removing cancerous tumors. And i…

Genuinely asking - What's stopping a country, or hospital, from saying: "we'll prioritize cancer patients, scheduled surgeries, normal operation; you come in with Covid respiratory distress, and we're full? Go away." From the government data I've found, Covid patients are about 5-20% of emergency department patients in the US[0]; in Switzerland that leaves a healthy amount of free beds[1] (though I'm sure staffing is…

I believe the EMTALA means a hospital can't deny you emergency treatment. Though what defines an emergency can be kind of murky. They could certainly evaluate most covid patients and send them home with Tylenol, or make them sit in their car while they let gunshot wounds in. I also think there is government money available for hospitals treating covid patients, so it is in the hospital's interest to not turn them away.

Some anecdotal evidence, I went through cancer treatment starting Feb 2020, ending Feb 2021, with a few scans since. Including one in a few days. I have never had any of my numerous appointments postponed for covid. But I think it is because I am lucky enough to afford to be treated by a hospital with a large cancer department.

Re: The case against masks at school

#389

Post by jimmyjazz14 »

taylodl wrote: post #304

General observation from reading the comments - the folks on HN must not have many friends working in medicine for if they had they'd realize those friends are swamped and burned-out. They'd also know that pretty much the only condition we're treating nowadays is Covid. Surgeries are continuing to be postponed - including surgeries that can lead to worse problems down the road such as removing cancerous tumors. And i…

Isn't the whole point of the article that school mask mandates probably don't reduce spread? If it doesn't reduce spread than it won't help your overwhelmed friends working in medicine. Sorry I guess I just don't understand what point you are trying to make.

Re: The case against masks at school

#390

Post by Domenic_S »

hydrok9 wrote: post #186
mh- wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if the shallowed breathing is a physiological response that only some of us experience while wearing masks. It could explain why there are two very different experiences for people when masked. I fortunately don't experience panic attacks from wearing a mask, but I will consistently get a headache from wearing one. And it's the same-feeling kind of headache I get from being in another enclosed space without…

It could be. To me it doesn't feel like there is a difference in the cadence of my breathing, after I put the mask on. I simply have less oxygen coming in. I probably should be breathing more deeply, all the time! Then perhaps the mask wouldn't make a noticeable difference. But after a lifetime of dealing with anxiety, I've learned to trust my body. My mind can lie to me when im anxious, but my body generally doesn't…

Not disagreeing with any of your comments about masks; but FWIW, as another person with a diagnosed & medicated anxiety disorder, your (our) body(ies) absolutely do lie to us. It's an inappropriate physiological response (fight/flight/etc) to stimuli. The panic response _is the lie_. It was that realization/training through therapy that helped make my disorder manageable, knowing that just because my body thinks it's in danger of dying doesn't mean it actually is.
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