Live data from Hacker News

Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

reuters.com

381–390 of 415 posts

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#381
post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The child of a friend of my girlfriend developed COVID myocarditis. He'll have heart problems for the rest of his life now. He's a child. This is why nothing less than total lockdown will do, even for a disease with a 99.97% survival rate -- at what cost comes survival?

I'm generally pro lockdown, but your argument there is the literal think of the children argument. It's bad enough to make me want to flip on that position.

In an environment where people (mainly the right) are brushing off vaccines and masking, social distancing, and lockdown mandates because of the notion that COVID is an old folks' disease that mainly affects people with marginal health to begin with, the idea that healthy children are being negatively affected for life is a valid counterargument.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#382

Did anyone else get really bad side effects? I felt awful after my first shot and now I an currently recovering from my second shot and feel even worse. I don’t think I have ever felt this bad from an illness.

I had my first pfizer shot 4 days ago. Today I have experienced slight chest pains when I make a deep breath or roll my torso forward. I think it could be pericarditis - inflammation of the tissue around heart.

Doesn't help that yesterday I drank a bit after a very long break. Dumbest thing I did in years.

If this is really some sort of heart inflammation then no way the chance is like one in a million, it must be way more common.

I consider if maybe this is a placebo, because I was aware of heart inflammation issues, but my mind could not possibly made up chest pains on deep breaths - I had no prior knowledge of the condition.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#383
post #2

It'd be nice if they mentioned how many cases there were, compared to number of shots.

Agreed. Context matters here. I'd hate for this to get blown out of proportion like the blood clot issue did, causing massive confidence declines in places all over, especially those struggling to roll out vaccines and keep their COVID cases under control. Obviously, if the numbers are alarming, we must react accordingly.

I would like to see it uncovered. I did not sign up for heart inflammation and any potential future problems that may come out from it.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not conflating anything? I'm only pointing out, under prospect theory, people value avoiding a loss over a risk for a gain. It's rational for someone who is currently healthy, in an age group with a 0.2% of COVID turning into anything more than a standard cold/flu, to turn down an immediate risk (orders of magnitude larger) that they will feel unhealthy for a couple days.

> in an age group with a 0.2% of COVID turning into anything more than a standard cold/flu except that's not the statistic... that's the death statistic for that age group. the odds of getting sicker than cold/flu are higher still and you will get much much sicker than the vaccine will give most people.

It was the hospitalization rate, as cited, and the rest of your comment is unsupported conjecture...

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in an age group with a 0.2% of COVID turning into anything more than a standard cold/flu except that's not the statistic... that's the death statistic for that age group. the odds of getting sicker than cold/flu are higher still and you will get much much sicker than the vaccine will give most people.

It was the hospitalization rate, as cited, and the rest of your comment is unsupported conjecture...

Except that's misleading considering that hospitalization is not a prerequisite for death and the statistic in that group is higher than 0.2%

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#demographics

the death rate in that cohort is 0.36% or about 1 in 300

14,387 deaths in 3,978,547 cases

considering that they are on the high end of that bracket the next higher bracket is about 1.3% mortality rate or about 1 in 100 though that houses the group up to age 64 so it's more likely closer to the 0.5%-0.8% mortality rate but that's interpolating the data so it's messy.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#386
post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you haven't seen any data of reduced transmission it is because you are intentionally avoiding it. Look ay the case numbers in the nations that are vaccinating at a high rate, if you don't know how to draw appropriate conclusions from that data then obviously you are not interested in forming an honest opinion. The evidence is just sitting out there, everywhere, you don't even need a proper study.. although there…

Reduced case numbers is not the same as reduced transmission. As the vaccines have only been tested to reduce symptoms, it would not be surprising that we are seeing fewer cases. In fact, it would be expected, as people don't generally test unless they have symptoms.

This is so hopelessly stupid I just feel sorry for you at this point.

If you think that the hospitals just magically emptied out and the virus is still circulating at the same rate as before vaccinations started in every jurisdiction that has significant vaccination rates you are hopelessly lost.

But I know you are not hopelessly lost, you are just not engaged in an honest discussion.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As a healthy 30 year old I would prefer to take my risk with covid than take these vaccines. As an exhausted 34 year old who spent the last year field-monitoring vaccine trials, I would love to see the sources that informed your position.

Alright. As an exhausted 37 year old, I'm going to stick my neck out and explain why I've chosen to put myself at the back of the queue for vaccines this time around. I'm sure the authorities will find some way to force me to take it at some point, but refusing these vaccines is a rational position. You may not agree with it, but it's based on rationality and logic. So here are my reasons. Firstly, I don't believe CO…

So let's assume the science is bad, and policy is fraught with political motives, incompetence and distortion to persuade the public to behave in a way that policymakers assume (right or wrong) is in the collective benefit.

Now let's assume this has always been the case. At what point, do you ever trust a vaccine or public health policy in general? Whether it's a vaccine for polio, rubella, hepatitis, etc. at some point does the collection of bad science become voluminous enough to somehow equal good enough science?

If you believe data integrity issues are extreme, there's no way to calculate risk of vaccine vs no action. Your decision would depend on whether you trust your own research over the official policy.

But given that most of us have no formal education on the subject, no resources to conduct more accurate studies, no access to primary data sources, nor an educated peer review group to critically examine our analysis, the chances of major flaws and biases seems quite high.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#388
post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alright. As an exhausted 37 year old, I'm going to stick my neck out and explain why I've chosen to put myself at the back of the queue for vaccines this time around. I'm sure the authorities will find some way to force me to take it at some point, but refusing these vaccines is a rational position. You may not agree with it, but it's based on rationality and logic. So here are my reasons. Firstly, I don't believe CO…

So let's assume the science is bad, and policy is fraught with political motives, incompetence and distortion to persuade the public to behave in a way that policymakers assume (right or wrong) is in the collective benefit. Now let's assume this has always been the case. At what point, do you ever trust a vaccine or public health policy in general? Whether it's a vaccine for polio, rubella, hepatitis, etc. at some po…

These are great questions that I'm struggling with at the moment. Certainly, my chance of taking vaccines in future has gone down a lot. However, mostly I've already taken all the ones I'd ever need including vaccines against the diseases you name, so the question is somewhat moot. In the end there's no real substitute for just weighing up the risks in each case the best you can.

"If you believe data integrity issues are extreme, there's no way to calculate risk of vaccine vs no action. Your decision would depend on whether you trust your own research over the official policy."

Correct. I do actually trust my own research over official policy at this point, but, the difficulty of mounting an alternative data based argument is definitely there. That's why I didn't try but explained my policy via social explanations. However, we can make some assumptions that let us use at least a small amount of data. We can assume that whatever official statistics do exist are manipulated or exaggerated to increase the apparent attractiveness of being vaccinated. There's enormous amounts of evidence that this sort of manipulation is happening, so it means those statistics put an upper bound on things. The truth may be that they're less attractive, but it's unlikely that they're moreso. Thus if even the official statistics, when examined closely, aren't convincing, it seems reasonable to conclude the argument must be very weak indeed.

"But given that most of us have no formal education on the subject, no resources to conduct more accurate studies, no access to primary data sources, nor an educated peer review group to critically examine our analysis, the chances of major flaws and biases seems quite high."

I think this is the source of the disagreement. As far as I can tell, public health researchers and officials are characterized by:

1. No formal education in anything biological or medical. Tedros is of course a former African communist official put in his position by China but even academics can turn out to be untrained. Prof Ferguson, whose bogus predictions created lockdowns, was originally a theoretical physicist and has no qualifications in anything biological or medical. In fact nothing in his team's work has any biology in it. That's totally normal: the people who predict disease and suggest policy frequently have no training in it, they're just data analysts ("mathematicians" to the press, to most corporates they'd be junior business analysts). I touch on this in my presentations to the British government ministers: you can read all the relevant papers without once encountering any actual biology or even any theory of disease. Even when they have training it's irrelevant, because they don't use it.

2. No resources to conduct accurate studies. Most existing studies are done by academics in their living rooms at the moment, so they don't actually have more resources than I do. Again, public health is not medicine. Public health consists primarily of academics and bureaucrats, especially in the current environment, they are mostly just working-from-home Office jockeys. Plus if existing studies are mostly useless then that's still useful to know, as it informs what to do next (i.e. nothing). A basic principle is that if there isn't clear evidence that it's useful to do something, the right response is not to look desperately for something to do (that's the so-called "politician's fallacy") but rather leave things alone.

3. The same access to data sources as everyone else. The primary data is all available and when you read in the press or government announcements about COVID studies, almost always those are simply analyses of publicly available data sets.

4. Peer groups of people who are just as poorly educated as them, with the added problem of groupthink. A big part of why the research is so corrupt is the academic need to please their in-group without looking un-educated or confrontational, so the absence of such groups is an advantage rather than a disadvantage. And at any rate, there are plenty of people out there debating these things in forums that are freer and more open than the average scientific peer group.

Overall I think the chance of flaws and biases in self-done research is lower than amongst the professionals assuming you're willing to sit down and wade through a lot of data and reports, and to stick to the scientific method. The quality of the "professional" stuff is so unbelievably low that as long as you're not actively lying to yourself all the time, and as long as you know how to use Excel, you stand a good chance of doing a better job. Not because the world is filled with high quality amateur scientists but because the world is filled with low quality professionals.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mRNA vaccines don't produce the entire spike protein, just a portion of it in order to target the antibodies towards that specific portion of the spike.

How much of the spike protein is coded for?

Almost all of it except the part where it joins to the rest of the virus, where it's been modified to give it structural stability and stop it collapsing.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#390
post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (i was always laughing at anti-vaxxers, yet seeing all misinformation and propaganda (the smell of USSR strength propaganda is just overwhelming) around covid i think i'll pass this one) No, you weren't. A common false-flag ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag ) attack involves presenting oneself as a member of an opposing viewpoint in order to find adherents for the desired viewpoint. The tell is your use of…

>The tell is your use of the words "misinformation" and "propaganda." People who tend to levy such claims also tend to share more of it you said it yourself. It is kind of ironically not surprising that you levied the above mentioned claim and actually posted the misinformation and propaganda yourself - see below. >No, you weren't. you really don't know, yet you're making with complete confidence such a completely fa…

It's very amusing you were actually able to show yourself laughing at anti-vaxers right here on HN, thus winning the argument against eganist completely. You should probably have called that out more clearly. I guessed what might be in the link but it would have been good to quote it.
Post reply on HN