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Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

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Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#381

Post by cjohnson318 »

humanrebar wrote: post #338
rbg246 wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone is saying that these sorts of companies have lots of money. These business have a model that relies on poverty wages changing the minimum wage will disrupt these businesses greatly and I don't see a problem with that. You can't keep a broken thing going because of the businesses that will have to change their model. But sorry I also see your point there needs to be help to business to change thei…

A teenager making change on bagel purchases isn't working for "poverty wages". And a business that providing tennagers jobs isn't being exploitive. I do think employers should be conscious about the kinds of lives they set their employees up for, though we can talk about that without overgeneralization.

> A teenager making change on bagel purchases isn't working for "poverty wages".

Aren't they though? You don't get a discount on rent because you're not 20 yet, and being under 20 doesn't mean you have rich parents that can subsidize your lifestyle.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#382

Post by zizee »

Honest question: why do discussions about minimum wage in the U.S. never propose having teenagers having a different minimum to adults?

In australia we have a $12.50/hr minimum for 15 year olds. It climbs in increments until about $25/hr.

This system allows teenagers to get a foot in the door for low-skilled jobs, and allows adults to get paid a livable wage.

The result is that a lot of fast food jobs are performed by teenagers, and they are considered entry level jobs. Adults are then paid more, and take positions where they can add more value that what a teen can provide.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#383

Post by humanrebar »

kixiQu wrote: post #364
humanrebar wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A teenager making change on bagel purchases isn't working for "poverty wages". And a business that providing tennagers jobs isn't being exploitive. I do think employers should be conscious about the kinds of lives they set their employees up for, though we can talk about that without overgeneralization.

https://www.epi.org/publication/wage-workers-older-88-percen... 88 percent of people making the federal minimum wage are older than 20. A third are older than 40. Median age is 31. More than half work full time.

You have a good point, and I appreciate the evenhanded approach. I'm still far from sold that "poverty wage" is a useful term if we want to have a healthy discussion. It leaves too much nuance out.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#384

Post by imtringued »

vl wrote: post #157
cratermoon wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think America has been too scared of inflation for too long This is true! The Federal Reserve, since the Carter administration, has acted like even the slightest bit of inflation is impending doom.

Feds tried to induce inflation for the last 20 years, it’s good for them since they can just print more money. They largely failed to do so since dollar is so well propped by international demand.

>it’s good for them since they can just print more money.

That's not good because it means they failed to keep up their mandate.

>They largely failed to do so since dollar is so well propped by international demand.

Actually, the international demand is forcing deficit spending. If money leaves the US and then comes back in the form of treasury bonds then pretty much the only way to tap into the money is to let the government get into debt. If driving yields to near zero was good enough to cause inflation we wouldn't be in this mess.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#385

Post by _qwfv »

maxerickson wrote: post #277
inetknght wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but some of your numbers are pretty high. Cost of living across the US varies wildly. The numbers are pulled from my most recent billing cycle for Houston and partly extrapolated to minimum wage (which I am most definitely not , but have friends who are). My rent is $1500/mo for 920sqft inside the 610 loop. The leasing office wanted $2000/mo for new contracts in October last year. It's really hard to find places fo…

Are people doing office work for $7.25 in Houston? I agree that prices vary widely, I'm not sure it makes sense to take expensive places as typical.

Those office workers rely on a huge infrastructure of other services -- food preparation, cleaning, maintenance workers, parking lot attendants, etc. etc.

The people who work those jobs should have the same access to their worksites as anyone else. Our willingness to tell people who make less money they should just "live farther away" and have longer commutes is awful. No, we should fix our cities so that we support a range of incomes and workers in one place.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#386

Post by nitwit005 »

nickff wrote: post #254
nitwit005 wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With such a small profit margin, arbitrarily raising everyone's wages is likely going to kill the business. There have been past minimum wage hikes, and that's not what has happened. The costs get passed onto consumers. Of course, there's presumably some hypothetical minimum wage that would be too high and destroy the industry, but the amounts being discussed in the US are below what other countries have already tr…

Your second sentence is debatable, as it appears that many European countries have high enough minimum total compensations (including benefits and other indirect costs) that unemployment is relatively high, and it can be very tough to get on the economic ladder.

My second sentence is suggesting that fast food restaurants will pass higher labor onto consumers. Your point seems entirely unrelated to that idea.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#387

Post by ozim »

ep103 wrote: post #330
ozim wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine scenario where you have $100k and you can open a small restaurant, create jobs, maybe not best jobs but still some people will be putting food on the table with your help, some students will pay for their collage. But you count the costs and it turns out you will break even in 50 years or if anything goes bad never, like, one bad hire will drown you. You look at Google, Apple, Facebook stocks ... there is alw…

https://academictimes.com/economic-news-reporting-suffers-fr... No. News sources are focusing on business instead of labor's issues, because news statistically favors business interests, not labor's. If your hypothetical business owner is unable to start a business without paying a reasonable wage, then that business should not exist. And your hypothetical business owner should invest in Apple, Facebook, or otherwise…

But that is creating tragedy of commons that we have now. People who are having money are investing in stocks or ETFs, buying real estate because it is still better than having cash. Which inflates stocks/real estate bubble and when it bursts it will be much bigger mess than paying low wages but in constant manner, spread out over multiple people and multiple years.

I definitely did not write about business that cannot pay its employees. I wrote about business that lets people put the food on the table, which means also pay the bills.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#388

Post by bradlys »

thunfischbrot wrote: post #224
bradlys wrote: post #223

I find this is true even within software. There is a large complaint about not enough engineers. There are enough engineers - it’s just that you won’t pay enough for them for the given locale! If every startup started compensating like FAANG, they’d have no trouble finding talent. Personally, I’ve had to go through this recently where I received 5 job offers. All well below what I’d consider “market” rate. They were…

Meh - I see one of the benefits of working outside of FAANG and other enterprises to work on something you trule believe in. Who truly loves working on improving the returns on online advertising to extract more money out of people's pockets?

I mean, that’s nice but it doesn’t really afford a typical professional middle class lifestyle that you would see outside the SF bay area. (Unless partner is at FAANG or surgeon)

You’re mostly stuck at liquid comp of $180-220k tops. Obviously if the startup works out, hallelujah. But if it doesn’t - that salary sucks for trying to have a home in a nice school district along with some normal vacations and what not.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#389

Post by Pfhreak »

humanrebar wrote: post #379
Pfhreak wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was a teenager working a minimum wage job. I also had to pay for housing, meals, healthcare, etc. Don't assume a teenager has a life less complex than yours.

With all due respect, you don't know me or what I've been through either.

Sure. Point stands: I was literally a teenager making change on bagel purchases. (Yes, actual bagel shoppe.) I was absolutely making poverty wages. If I did not have free meals from work as a perk I would have starved.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#390

Post by heavyset_go »

nitwit005 wrote: post #245
jschveibinz wrote: post #2

This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Fast food restaurants, or place like "Dale's" mentioned in the article, make very little profit. It is most likely below 10%. Here is an estimate: https://www.restaurant365.com/blog/what-is-the-average-profi... . A 10% profit is very modest. That's not the story of the "fat cats getting rich on the back of the workers" that the article is al…

> With such a small profit margin, arbitrarily raising everyone's wages is likely going to kill the business. There have been past minimum wage hikes, and that's not what has happened. The costs get passed onto consumers. Of course, there's presumably some hypothetical minimum wage that would be too high and destroy the industry, but the amounts being discussed in the US are below what other countries have already tr…

> The costs get passed onto consumers.

Regarding this, from this[1] paper:

> Many business leaders fear that any increase in the minimum wage will be passed on to consumers through price increases thereby slowing spending and economic growth, but that may not be the case. New research shows that the pass-through effect on prices is fleeting and much smaller than previously thought.

> By looking at changes in restaurant food pricing during the period of 1978–2015, MacDonald and Nilsson find that prices rose by just 0.36 percent for every 10 percent increase in the minimum wage, which is only about half the size reported in previous studies. They also observe that small minimum wage increases do not lead to higher prices and may actually reduce prices. Furthermore, it is also possible that small minimum wage increases could lead to increased employment in low-wage labor market.

[1] https://www.upjohn.org/research-highlights/does-increasing-m...

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