Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board • Hacker News Board

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#381

Post by blueline » Sat, Mar 27, 2021, 4:37 PM UTC

tomnipotent wrote: post #339

api wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I listened to a podcast recently about Amazon union drives and apparently the big gripe isn't wages but working conditions. The almost universal sentiment is that people are treated like robots. Breaks are so rare and short that pissing in bottles or defecating in bags is common. Sometimes people have to choose between relieving themselves and eating since the break is too short for both. Most of the people interview…

> pissing in bottles or defecating in bags is common I'd be willing to wager this "fact" has been brought up more in this thread alone than has actually happened on the job. Makes for great sensationalism, though. The union cause would be much better served without this silly BS being shared like it's the actual cause of woos.

It’s so common that within 16 hours of soliciting anonymous tips about the prevalence of it within Amazon, the intercept was able to fill an entire article with evidence of how common it is

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#382

Post by fastball » Sat, Mar 27, 2021, 4:37 PM UTC

neolog wrote: post #125

fastball wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except "my labor" is not a collective resource, so it's not really a tragedy of the commons situation.

The labor isn't the collective resource. It's the negotiating power.

The negotiating power only exists because of my participation. I am not destroying something that would exist anyway by my lack of participation.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#383

Post by clcaev » Sat, Mar 27, 2021, 4:38 PM UTC

hnarn wrote: post #330

clcaev wrote: post #314

The entire concept of unionization seems unnecessarily confrontational. It does not need to be this way. Corporations are creations of the state. There is nothing preventing the state to require significant representation of employees in every board of directors. This board representation could support management that better reflects employee participation, e.g. Sociocracy. In this way, labour and capital could work…

I admire that you keep an open mind in a subject that is normally extremely infected, but I think your perspective shows a slight lack of understanding for the history of labor conflict around the world. I don't know if you'll find it helpful, but I'll just chime in on some of your points: > The entire concept of unionization seems unnecessarily confrontational. Unionization is confrontational by definition because i…

I'm not sure why you are currently downvoted; it seems like a contribution to this discourse.

Even so, perhaps the reasoning frame you promote is one of our challenges. I see labour and capital as being in conflict when they are out of balance with regard to one another.

In particular, I do not think labour (or capital) must always be in the driver's seat. I think that every situation probably has a healthy balance of power, dependent upon the circumstances, where both capital and labour are respected for the contributions they make to the enterprise.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#384

Post by marricks » Sat, Mar 27, 2021, 4:43 PM UTC

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #380

marricks wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counties with Amazon warehouses have a lower pay rate for warehouse work than counties without them. Amazon makes bank because they can get away with exploiting workers more than a mom and pop shop can, or small businesses. --- edit --- Amazon also has an extremely high turn over rate revealing the cruelty of their workplaces: https://labor411.org/411-blog/warehouse-worker-turnover-rate... Cite from economist for cou…

> Counties with Amazon warehouses have a lower pay rate for warehouse work than counties without them. Mom and pop warehouses pay $12-$13/hr in my county and Amazon pays $15-$20/hr with health care I believe. https://www.amazondelivers.jobs/about/benefits/

That's a nice local statistic but it's probable at this point amazon is depressing warehouse work wages that used to be quite a bit above minimum wage.

https://www.economist.com/united-states/2018/01/20/what-amaz...

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#385

Post by marricks » Sat, Mar 27, 2021, 4:45 PM UTC

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #317

clcaev wrote: post #314

The entire concept of unionization seems unnecessarily confrontational. It does not need to be this way. Corporations are creations of the state. There is nothing preventing the state to require significant representation of employees in every board of directors. This board representation could support management that better reflects employee participation, e.g. Sociocracy. In this way, labour and capital could work…

The biggest confusion I have is everybody seems to approach Amazon and Tesla unionization as "hopefully it happens so workers will get better wages!" I could be wrong but... I'm pretty sure Amazon and Tesla pay great relative to their space. Relatively demanding, sure. I get it. We've all seen the article where some Amazon worker urinated in a bottle because "the job is just so ruthless!". They employ hundreds of tho…

Warehouse work used to pay more than $15/hr, and if you look at the stats workers in counties without Amazon warehouses get paid more[1]. Pay is closer to 20 an hour.

[1] https://www.economist.com/united-states/2018/01/20/what-amaz...

- sorry for the second comment but I wanted to cut to the chase

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#386

Post by Jonnax » Sat, Mar 27, 2021, 4:46 PM UTC

concordDance wrote: post #288

Jonnax wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it's okay for a business to treat employees so badly they find they have to piss in bottles? And it's okay for their official PR twitter account to lie and say it doesn't happen? But it's not okay that a politician says they're going to do something about it?

Politicians should not be threatening to silence people or companies, regardless of whether the latter are lying or treating people badly. If Amazon is breaking employment law or anti-monopoly law or anything else it can be fined or broken up. What it should not be is silenced.

https://www.businessinsider.com/elizabeth-warren-amazon-twit...

I've quote the tweets below.

Warren has been campaigning to break up large tech companies.

What is so unprofessional about that? Clearly if she was to try and get them fined or broken up it would be through these laws.

She isn't silencing them. She's saying that there'll be consequences.

And Amazon's PR isn't a small company. They can take the heat.

I don't agree with you. A company that forces employees to piss in bottles and lies about it should have their lies face consequences.

Warren isn't removing their tweets. How are they being silenced?

Here is the quotes:

``` After she posted the video on Twitter, saying that companies like Amazon "pay close to nothing in taxes," the tech giant quickly fired back.

"You make the tax laws @SenWarren; we just follow them," it tweeted from its official news account.

"If you don't like the laws you've created, by all means, change them," it added.

Amazon said that it had paid "billions of dollars" in corporate taxes over the past few years alone.

Warren hit back, saying: "I didn't write the loopholes you exploit, @amazon – your armies of lawyers and lobbyists did.

"But you bet I'll fight to make you pay your fair share," she added. "And fight your union-busting. And fight to break up Big Tech so you're not powerful enough to heckle senators with snotty tweets." ```

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#387

Post by lukejduncan » Sat, Mar 27, 2021, 4:48 PM UTC

ausbah wrote: post #345

lukejduncan wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right to work is pro employee. If unions want membership they shouldn’t be able to coerce it. They should have to earn it and compete for it. If a union can’t survive based on voluntary membership then that tells you something.

it is the state infringing in the market on the side of business and capital by restricting the ability of workers to collectively bargain with employers workers are less well off but it's ok because "individualism"

No one is being restricted from bargaining collectively. They’re just being given the choice to opt out. Unions just get upset because they lose their monopoly status to police workers voices who disagree with their position and politics.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#388

Post by hrktb » Sat, Mar 27, 2021, 4:52 PM UTC

karaterobot wrote: post #368

hrktb wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going through all of your point, it felt like every “unions” mention could be replaced with “management”. Protecting themselves ? check. Politicized the work environment ? check. Abusive practices ? check. Skewed view of the world and cronyism ? check. I think what you are seeing is just a reflection of who succeeds in French companies. Some chose unions, some management, some find other niches, but none of these see…

You're right about that, but I want to support the original commenter a bit and point out that management isn't going away, and adding unions on top of that is not an improvement if they share the same flaws.

You have a point. Then unions’ raison d’être is to counterbalance management, so them ending up using the same tools and having the same flaws would still be OK to me if they provide an opportunity to get what you wouldn’t have gotten otherwise.

In a working market, pitching companies one against the others could have the same effect as unions, but I think there is enough implicit and explicit collusion and perverse incentives that we are far from that ideal.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#389

Post by lolthishuman » Sat, Mar 27, 2021, 4:52 PM UTC

clcaev wrote: post #314

The entire concept of unionization seems unnecessarily confrontational. It does not need to be this way. Corporations are creations of the state. There is nothing preventing the state to require significant representation of employees in every board of directors. This board representation could support management that better reflects employee participation, e.g. Sociocracy. In this way, labour and capital could work…

It automatically creates an adversarial relationship. Terrible way to live life on either side of that construct.

No one should be forced to work anywhere. Which also means working isn’t a right. Work somewhere that works with you and establish a healthy relationship. Set expectations and be clear on what is desired.

One spends much of their time working, to do it in such a way where a cordial relationship is not there; it might as well be no different than hell.

Find somewhere else to work if a company doesn’t work with your ethos. Unionizing to coerce and compel is so disgusting. It’s plainly a form of bullying. That’s no way to live life.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#390

Post by Nimitz14 » Sat, Mar 27, 2021, 5:04 PM UTC

JBSmoove wrote: post #236

aborsy wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had this naive image in mind that unions are labor activists mobilizing against exploitative corporate practices. What I witnessed opened my eyes to the realities on ground, that seemed like almost opposite. As usual, life is more complicated! * The objective of trade unions is not to protect workers and improve their conditions (at least directly). It’s to protect themselves. * In every organization, there exists…

Germany's workforce in automotive and many other industries is HIGHLY unionized. I've never heard of these people being lazy, not wanting to work etc. In fact German engineering is the envy of the world! VW, Mercedes, BMW, Porsche all German engineered and manufactured by heavily unionized workforces! Sounds like your anecdotal bad experience with unions is not representative of reality. And FWIW I can list you just…

You know what they also all of in common? Zero innovation since decades.

And German car engineering is mostly known for being overly complicated, I say that as a German.