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Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

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Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#381

Post by michaelmrose »

tjoff wrote: post #376
michaelmrose wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It night not be great but it does many things Effectively and doesn't require each graphical environment to individually handle low level hardware details.

Yes, and it is about to die. Wayland could have been executed better to ease adoption, no doubt. More than anything momentum is required, which we arguable are beginning to see. The question today isn't X vs. Wayland. It is Wayland vs. Y. Whatever Y is.

The people who would greatly benefit from not needing to maintain it shout from the rooftops that it is dead because they wish it was already so. In fact its probably be mainstream for another 10-15 years and existing for another 25. Look how long it took to sort of but not really kill python 2.

Thus the choice today is actually X vs Wayland because those are the 2 choices that can provide a functional desktop at this point in time.

As for possible Ys I see SurfaceFlinger from android which doesn't look like its suitable for a desktop

Arcan a one man band that doesn't look apt to replace X soon

https://arcan-fe.com/videos/

Whatever Redox uses. I don't quite understand from a casual inspection how graphics works there.

I would bet money that the choice over the next 10 years will STILL be X vs Wayland with more stuff wedged in until wayland is more functional but as kludgy as X wherein someone will have the brilliant idea to replace it with something more "modern"

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#382

Post by _ph_ »

izacus wrote: post #372
_ph_ wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like an interesting screen. Which is it, if I may ask?

That sounds like a rather standard 27" 4K display of which there are several on the market.

That would have way less PPI. I have 24" 4K display that already has less than 200 ppi. Thats why I am interested which 4k display would reach close to 300, if that wasn't just a typo.

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#383

Post by PurpleFoxy »

Aardwolf wrote: post #300
PurpleFoxy wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author obviously hasn’t tried plugging a high dpi monitor in to a laptop if they don’t understand what’s wrong with X. Wayland solves so many of my problems and so far the only thing it breaks is screen capture in electron apps. And not even all electron apps. Discord has no problems.

What do you mean by high DPI monitor? I have a 32" 4K monitor, is that high DPI? It works perfectly in X for me. I don't see any screen tearing when moving a window fast across the entire screen either, if that was the concern. I also could set up large enough font sizes in cinnamon and browsers.

The laptop part is important. Your laptop likely has a 1080p screen which needs to be at 100% scale while 4K monitors usually need to be at 200% scale. X does not allow this.

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#384

Post by Jkvngt »

I have no need for it. I also don’t care for IBM / Red Hat’s “viral” marketing, it’s really just terrible shilling. Nobody wants Wayland. Nobody needs it. We are tired of hearing about how IBM will pull its X.org developer - just shit or get off the pot already so a proper fork can be made to continue the work on X.

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#385

Post by michaelmrose »

eitland wrote: post #235
michaelmrose wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firefox me robot wasn't a real threat to your security whereas security holes patched in firefox but not palemoon certainly are. Your browser is your number one vulnerability and you have selected poorly. https://www.howtogeek.com/335712/update-why-you-shouldnt-use...

> and you have selected poorly. Note that I write "experimenting with". I'm fairly aware that my browser is the main vulnerability, thank you, which is why I run different (mainstream) browsers for different sites already and actually want even more lock down for certain use cases than what IT currently privides. I'll also add that in the last 20 years I've had one infection on a machine that I alone used (a drive by…

Its a garbage product run by heinously rude people

https://github.com/jasperla/openbsd-wip/issues/86

If you run it you are choosing poorly

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#386

Post by Jkvngt »

canofbars wrote: post #121
DavidPiper wrote: post #35

There might be some good stuff here for Wayland devs, but otherwise seems to be mostly the usual dumpster fire (good for for roasting popcorn, though). Stopped reading at this gem from the OP a long way down: > For all the Wayland proponents here, why argue in places like this, wouldn't it be a better use of your time to send PRs to fix things like MaartenBaert/ssr#431 and vkohaupt/vokoscreenNG#51. Time perhaps to in…

>Hats off to the Wayland devs. We're cheering you from the sidelines. Its pretty horrible how much toxic crap gets directed at the people who actually do all of the work. Just look at the amount of abuse has been flung at the SystemD developers from people who largely do not even know what it does.

Then again, mocking and taunting people for using X11, which works great for most people, repeating all over every social media outlet that “X11 is dead use Wayland LOL,” giggling about how once IBM pulls its developers from X11 that “nyaaa nyaaaaahhhhh you’ll have no choice” and other poor marketing decisions, apparently conceived by obnoxious children, have convinced many people to NEVER touch Wayland with a ten foot pole.

It’s like the System D shills - they are HYPER obnoxious. I don’t need software made inside IBM, and I don’t need software which apparently can only gain adoption by obnoxious bullying.

It’s too late for Wayland, much like it’s too late for System D. The hyper childish bullshit chased me, and many others, away.

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#387

Post by rstuart4133 »

jchw wrote: post #19

> Wayland solves no issues I have This is a common sentiment, but it is kind of funny. Because software engineers working for companies will know the struggle of trying to justify reducing technical debt, improving security practices, etc. but fail to see why these things are useful to them personally when the tables turn. Wayland indeed “breaks a lot of shit” but it’s not an accident or done due to incompetence. Als…

> Wayland solves no issues I have

Indeed, it's funny they would think it was meant to solve issues they had. The justification for it was never X11 doesn't work. It was always "it's becoming impossible to work on".

As it happens, Wayland does solve a problem I have. The HDMI port doesn't work under X11 on my Lenovo X1 2nd gen laptop. It does under Wayland. Granted, that's because no one wants to work on X11 any more, so new or unusual stuff doesn't get added. (The X1 gen2 is indeed unusual: the HDMI port comes off the Nvidia card rather than the intergrated graphics. The X1 gen3 fixes that nit.)

Which brings us the full circle: Wayland may fix no issues he has now, but the X11 code base being so much of a pig will mean he has issues with it in the future.

I've now moved to Wayland, and it was under sufferance. It's forced me to use Gnome3. The Gnome3 taskbar and I are not compatible ("what a complete waste of space" springs to mind), so I'm not that happy about it. Debian's alternatives system for selecting a Window Manager (now the compositor under Wayland) seems to be completely broken.

But Wayland itself: a few paper cuts, touchpads not working after suspend and things like that - nothing serious. But my god it's fast, and amazingly remote X11 connections (ie, "ssh -X") still just work. And the code base is much smaller.

People are comparing Wayland to systemd, to me it's not at all like systemd. Systemd was more complex, in lines of code literally 100's of times larger than then things it replaced, and never delivered on it's speed promises, and seeks to replace everything with Systemd. On all those metrics, Wayland is the reverse - it even encourages mutiple implementations.

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#388

Post by tjoff »

michaelmrose wrote: post #381
tjoff wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and it is about to die. Wayland could have been executed better to ease adoption, no doubt. More than anything momentum is required, which we arguable are beginning to see. The question today isn't X vs. Wayland. It is Wayland vs. Y. Whatever Y is.

The people who would greatly benefit from not needing to maintain it shout from the rooftops that it is dead because they wish it was already so. In fact its probably be mainstream for another 10-15 years and existing for another 25. Look how long it took to sort of but not really kill python 2. Thus the choice today is actually X vs Wayland because those are the 2 choices that can provide a functional desktop at thi…

And the developers have already left.

When using gnome wayland is already the default in most major distributions already or have been announced for the next major version (such as ubuntu 21.04).

I don't know about KDE more than that they are making progress. If they within a few years make the same transition then pretty much every single default installation will be on wayland. A few moments after that XWayland will become the leading X-server. X will surely live on for decades to come inside wayland, and that is fine. And X will surely be an option for an eternity in some distros. But it will quickly become quite niche, similar to the way systemd has become the mainstream init system.

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#389

Post by sam_lowry_ »

DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #336
ralfn wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and no. Application sandboxing is not a need I have or one that I want my display manager to solve. But incompatibility vs the architecture disallows features like screen sharing, automation or accessibility means I will not ever have it installed anywhere. I can't tell people want to do, but those features seem very "contemporary" to me. Perhaps it's because I use linux as my work desktop. I suppose if this is t…

> I already am selective about what I install and most of those things aren't even desktop applications. in X any application can turn into a keylogger, and you don't need a GUI for it, as long as the program can "speak X" it will be able to read the shared memory of all other programs the X server manages.

I run 4 applications: Chromium, Xterm, Gimp and IntelliJ. Am I unsecure?

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#390

Post by sam_lowry_ »

phkahler wrote: post #371
iforgotpassword wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My desktop is not a smartphone where I download random shady apps from an app store. I don't need any of the "security" wayland offers. If I don't trust some software I simply won't apt install it.

You are not the only user.

I am the other user like him. Where are your imaginary users?
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