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Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

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Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#231

Post by adrusi »

noname120 wrote: post #99
brmgb wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Xorg is 16 years old Xorg is a fork of Xfree86 which started in 1991 but feature parity minus the cruft has been reached years ago. Some people disagree about what is cruft however. For example, I view 90% of the list in the posted articles to be minor softwares relying on undesirable behaviour and unwilling to adapt (the remaining 10% being misrepresentation of actually solved issues listed in bad faith). The orig…

> How can people accept to use a display manager with constant screen tearing is beside me That's solved by using a compositing window manager such as Compton.

No, that does not solve the issue. Not using a compositor definitely makes tearing worse, on top of a number of other things, but even with a compositor, you'll get tearing on X, at least using intel graphics.

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#232

Post by ATsch »

gspr wrote: post #219
ATsch wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only copy/paste behavioral difference I've noticed on Wayland is that I lose the copied data if I close the source program. This is because sway by default does not provide a "clipboard manager" component. It has been the case for a long time that the clipboard is only actually populated when you paste, copying merely stores a reference. This is so you can copy/paste multi gigabyte files without running out of…

Got it! Thanks for clarifying. Honest question: Is this something that people are missing in Wayland?

I personally found it annoying enough to install clipman[0] for my sway setup. Especially with short lived applications like calculators etc.

[0] https://github.com/yory8/clipman

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#233

Post by vetinari »

simion314 wrote: post #222
vetinari wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This post is a bit too ranty for its own good, but it has a valid point, and one that is unfortunately common in the open source community: because you have no monetary obligation to your "customers" (=users), there's not really a lot that forces you to maintain backwards compatibility. And yet, distros like Ubuntu are too conservative, because they are too careful not to break something. Their signalling is then c…

>And yet, distros like Ubuntu are too conservative, because they are too careful not to break something. Their signalling is then considered as it works, we don't have to fix anything, Ubuntu will keep things broken for us. Due to this attitude, they have slowed down Linux desktop by years, by not switching to Wayland by default in the past LTS release. How can you complain about Ubuntu LTS keeping Xorg as default in…

> How can you complain about Ubuntu LTS keeping Xorg as default in an LTS when RedHat itself had Xorg as default at that time. Isn't this hypocrisy or irony?

RHEL8 uses Wayland as default. RHEL8 was released in May 2019. Ubuntu LTS was released in April 2020. What hypocrisy you are talking about?

> (same thing of idiots complaining about upstart being shit while RedHat and Goole were still using and supporting it.

Redhat uses systemd since RHEL7; Upstart was used in RHEL6.

Story time: Redhat management didn't see the point of systemd originally; Poettering did it in his spare time, and Redhat management has seen the point only after Fedora and Arch adopted it. Meanwhile, RHEL6 was already deep into its release cycle.

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#234

Post by michaelmrose »

gspr wrote: post #217
michaelmrose wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I asked you to name even one thing sway did better and you tell me about the nature of the legacy code base. No user on earth cares any more than they care about the sharpness of the blades used to grind the sausage they ate for breakfast. I'm not sure why you imagine that nvidia is obligated to support Linux in the fashion you would prefer. I bought the hardware based on the existing drivers working well under Linux…

> I asked you to name even one thing sway did better and you tell me about the nature of the legacy code base. OK, let me rephrase it: a feature it has over i3 is a higher probability of running on the platform provided by most distros in 5 years' time. > No user on earth cares any more than they care about the sharpness of the blades used to grind the sausage they ate for breakfast. Indeed. But if you're choosing a…

Rhel 8 which includes x11 ends on 2029, extended support on 2031.

No word on whether red hat will be able to get rid of x11 by 2023/4 or whenever the next major release is and end up supporting it until 2036ish.

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#235

Post by eitland »

michaelmrose wrote: post #187
eitland wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm experimenting with Pale Moon now. It actuall feels snappier than the latest Firefox, but a profile reset on my main Firefox might change that (traditionally with my usage patterns there's little improvement to be seen from that.) So for now the advantages of Firefox vs Chrome are: - not Google - less RAM usage - slightly better extensions And for Palemoon vs Firefox: Pro Palemoon: - snappier (?) - extensions work…

Firefox me robot wasn't a real threat to your security whereas security holes patched in firefox but not palemoon certainly are. Your browser is your number one vulnerability and you have selected poorly. https://www.howtogeek.com/335712/update-why-you-shouldnt-use...

> and you have selected poorly.

Note that I write "experimenting with".

I'm fairly aware that my browser is the main vulnerability, thank you, which is why I run different (mainstream) browsers for different sites already and actually want even more lock down for certain use cases than what IT currently privides.

I'll also add that in the last 20 years I've had one infection on a machine that I alone used (a drive by exploit in a banner ad on a developer blog I read) so a combination of carefulness/paranoia certainly helps ;-)

And no, I'm not suggesting anyone should uncritically download a random browser and start exploring the dark corners of the web.

Also: I agree, the robot thing was harmless, but that said: do you remember Superfish? The little thing that Lenovo added to their laptops? Which turned out to be a giant easily exploitable hole?

As for the robot extension:

- when I noticed it in between my own extensions it scared me quite badly until I managed to look it up

- companies that does such things aren't trustworthy. The robot thing was harmless. Superfish wasn't. Do you trust marketing executives to know the difference?

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#236

Post by _a1_ »

cies wrote: post #27
_a1_ wrote: post #7

Wayland doesn't even work for me, so I guess I don't have such problems. I'm not really into the actual arguments between NVidia and Wayland folks, but I suspect it's something like "they don't want to bow to us, therefore we don't want to work with them" from both sides. Like a kindergarten ;)

Only Nvidia has a history of being uncollaborative to open source: https://www.google.com/search?channel=fs&client=ubuntu&q=lin... At some point, even in kindergarten, some kid's just being an ass.

That's part of what I'm talking about. Giving a 'f you' sign on a public conference is not professional at all. I mean I know that it's Linus who did it, and we all like Linus, so we give him a free pass with his sh-ttalk, at the same time when we would condemn anyone else who uses such rhetoric who isn't Linus, but in closed-source software development world such clashes happen all the time, each month. Whether a software project in such environment is a success or failure depends on whether people will get along with each other, or not. In case of Nvidia/Wayland I think that simply people just don't want to get along each other.

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#237

Post by aacid »

enriquto wrote: post #58
PurpleFoxy wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author obviously hasn’t tried plugging a high dpi monitor in to a laptop if they don’t understand what’s wrong with X. Wayland solves so many of my problems and so far the only thing it breaks is screen capture in electron apps. And not even all electron apps. Discord has no problems.

> The author obviously hasn’t tried plugging a high dpi monitor in to a laptop if they don’t understand what’s wrong with X This is the only actual, honest, problem that I've ever seen about X. Still, it does not seem a really fundamental problem, it must surely be solvable from within X? Do we really need a full-rewrite of X, unstable, with new bugs and less functionalities? (many of us don't use "desktop" applicati…

I believe if you want linux to be competitive as desktop OS you need to cater for the average user. I would wager that need for multidisplay support is much more common than need for xwit, no?

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#238

Post by rwmj »

teekert wrote: post #131

So funny to read "Wayland breaks everything", yet I run it everyday (on Ubuntu), it solved my screen tearing and other than that I only switch to X for my sons Minecraft. For me it didn't "break everything" in fact, it fixed something for me. Moreover, it seems to be more secure (which is of course something you only notice by things not happening). So such a title does not really make me want to read what is probabl…

"screen tearing" is this thing which is always rolled out to defend Wayland, and I use X all the time and have never worried about this as a problem (even assuming I understand what the problem is). Maybe my eyes are too slow to see this or something. To throw away everything to get this imaginary benefit seems pretty strange to me.

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#240

Post by vetinari »

alpaca128 wrote: post #214
vetinari wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Problem solved! Not so fast! Are you going to patch it to decade old binaries? How are you going to handle that Wordperfect from 1998? It certainly won't respect you new protocol. How the compositors are supposed to handle that? If you are not going to handle it, and just let it behave as it behaves today, you are still not achieving your goal of scaling all clients properly, and kind of throwing away that 30 years…

> Are you going to patch it to decade old binaries? How are you going to handle that Wordperfect from 1998? The same way Apple handles a PowerPC-compiled application from 1998. By incrementing to a new major version number, and stating in the changelog that users are free to keep running the older version if their software won't be patched. Does Wayland provide a better solution than that? No, and in addition it also…

> The same way Apple handles a PowerPC-compiled application from 1998.

It doesn't handle them at all. There was a transition mechanism, to get users updated, but it wasn't maintained long term. You could not run PowerPC binaries from 1998 in 2005.

Apple expected their users to update the binaries for new architecture in the long term. In many cases, not only ISA and ABI changed, APIs too; good luck if your application used Quickdraw.

(Yes, I still do have coasters in the basement).

So compared to that, Wayland's Xwayland is too nice and too longterm.

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