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EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

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Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#381

Post by minimuffins »

GekkePrutser wrote: post #356

I don't really need that. My work is my hobby and even before Corona things were intermixed completely. If someone pings me at 11pm from the US with a major issue and I have nothing better to do, Call of Duty can wait till tomorrow :P I like helping people and it helps relax my mind knowing that in the morning there hasn't been a major escalation building up over the last 8 hours. And they know I'm in Europe so they…

I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of people who read Hacker News feel this way about their own jobs. But surely you can see this is necessarily a minority of the population. Necessarily, most people who are part or the world economy will not experience labor this way.

It's a strange line of reasoning! Every time there's talk of reigning in employer surveillance, reducing working hours or generally speaking any measure that seeks to leverage up workers' power against their employers, there's a comfy tech worker ready to comment about how, well, I'm actually an exception, I actually like my job, etc...

And good for you, truly, if that's you! It feels wonderful to have employment that you really enjoy and look forward to. Keep working on the weekend if you really want to (a real danger of burnout though). But we are the exception here, and it makes no sense to govern based only on exceptions.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#382

Post by croes »

GekkePrutser wrote: post #356

I don't really need that. My work is my hobby and even before Corona things were intermixed completely. If someone pings me at 11pm from the US with a major issue and I have nothing better to do, Call of Duty can wait till tomorrow :P I like helping people and it helps relax my mind knowing that in the morning there hasn't been a major escalation building up over the last 8 hours. And they know I'm in Europe so they…

This only works if there is a balance of power. But most of them are not in this position.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#383

Post by ghaff »

cr1895 wrote: post #367
mikem170 wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point in the conversation I don't understand why any employee would want them to be separate. Doesn't that just work to the company's benefit? They want you to be there as many days as possible Why wouldn't you want all the sick+personal days to use as you see fit?

>Why wouldn't you want all the sick+personal days to use as you see fit? Another thing that is important to point out is that leave days are sometimes an earned entitlement ultimately paid out to you if not taken, whereas sick leave isn't.

That's a good point. It may also be worth pointing out that's the case with "unlimited" vacation as well. Even if you're not cynical about whether employees will be able to take a reasonable amount in practice, it's certainly the case that nothing needs to be paid out when you leave. Which for someone moving around jobs a fair bit can add up over time.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#384

Post by ciceryadam »

davidgay wrote: post #319
treis wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you probably get paid 1/3 to 1/2 of what a developer in the US can make. The reality of the world is that if you're the lead developer for some product you will have times that you need to work off hours. Like if production is down how can you say: "My 40 hours is up this week, I'll look at it on Monday". It's a balance. You shouldn't routinely be working a ton of nights and weekends. But sometimes shit hits the…

> It's a balance. You shouldn't routinely be working a ton of nights and weekends. But sometimes shit hits the fan at inconvenient hours and you need to respond. If not, you have to have routine 24/7 coverage which gets really expensive really fast ultimately leading to lower salaries for developers. The not-uncommon answer to this is an oncall rotation, where you are paid at some fraction of your full-time salary, t…

Yup exactly, if I'm on emergency calls, I get payed 10% of my base hourly to be available, online in 15minutes and ready to solve issues. As soon as I get a call during this time, it's overtime (125% of hourly pay, bonuses for weekend/night calls). If I'm on holiday I'm out for the company, but I'm there for colleagues. With this system did daily rotations and weekly rotations, both lengths have their pros and cons.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#385

Post by notreallytrue »

GekkePrutser wrote: post #373
tzs wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I check email and sometimes answer when on vacation, because often 10 minutes spent addressing a small issue while I'm away prevents several days or a week or two of dealing with a huge issue when I get back. I'm the guy who if something messes up has to go through the databases trying to figure out what data is incorrect, and goes through logs and reports to try to infer what the data should be, and then figure out…

This exactly! And knowing there is all this crap waiting when you get back is also not helping to relax. I'd rather spend 10 minutes every day on my vacation making sure things are good and fixing small issues, it gives me a feeling nothing is getting out of control. Besides, I like my job. It's not the saltmines.

> it gives me a feeling nothing is getting out of control.

I think many of us in technology feel the same, the trick is to repress the control freak inside you and enjoy your free time while someone whose job is to fix these problems works on them.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#386

Post by chrisseaton »

notreallytrue wrote: post #371
chrisseaton wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Don't guilt people who happen to have lifesaving jobs for taking vacations. In many cases taking that job means accepting you may be forced to come in and work. Often called 'unlimited liability' for example. If you can't accept that, then leave the job to someone who can. > The buck stops somewhere. In this case apparently it's fine for it to stop with a dead person.

> In this case apparently it's fine for it to stop with a dead person. People that do a job where they can save lives accept the fact that saving lives is not granted. People don't die because someone is slacking. Do you realize how stupid that sounds?

> People don't die because someone is slacking.

Not sure where you read this argument?

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#387

Post by GekkePrutser »

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #322
skohan wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spent part of my career working in the US, and now I work in Germany, and I can say the labor laws make a huge difference. Some would say this type of law hampers innovation, but at some level if there is not a basic fair playing field set for everyone, there will always be the incentive for some to over-work to get ahead.

I'm afraid this type of law will decrease salaries in Europe compared to US. For instance I work at an international company and I already get paid 2-3x less than same level engineers in US. I feel like this would increase the gap even more. And I'd prefer to have the option to over-achieve if this is what I choose to do with my life.

I definitely get 3-4x less than US in the EU country where I live.

But who cares.. I like the low-pressure life here. Rents are lower than the US too. We have socialised healthcare, safe gun-free cities. That's worth a lot more than a number on a bank statement.

I hear that in the US people will lose their healthcare when they lose a job and it could cost $1000 a month (which is more than my monthly rent)! Here it's simply free. That brings a lot of peace of mind.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#388

Post by brtkdotse »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #254
brtkdotse wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Somebody who has a planned surgery for long-term health issues needing to save up sick days to use for the recovery I don't want to be "that guy" but Jeez Louise does this sound like total dystopia when viewed from the outside. What would happen if you didn't have sick days saved?

Nearly all lower income employees in the US don’t have sick days, or any paid time if they don’t come to work. If they aren’t working, they aren’t getting paid. Additionally, they are not qualified for unemployment benefits if they are fired due to it being the employee’s fault they could not work.

furiously updating proof_of_worst_timeline.xlsx

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#389

Post by GoblinSlayer »

treis wrote: post #270
colejohnson66 wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a balance. But the point GP is making (it seems) is that if “shit [does] hit the fan,” you should be paid overtime for it, not have it be part of your job. It’s a cultural difference really.

It doesn't really work because the incentives become misaligned. It becomes a good thing for workers to have things go wrong and for them to be inefficient with their time. Organizations end up much less flexible because they then don't trust their workers not to milk them. Ultimately it changes from paying someone to get a job done to paying them for hours worked. Anyone that's hired a plumber knows that you get far…

Workers can destroy the system due to incompetence too, then they are just fired as incompetent, i.e. you need to deal with this anyway.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#390

Post by s3krit »

baby_wipe wrote: post #361

This is terrible. I would not want a third party to dictate the the hours I work for my employer. There are situations where I'd like to guarantee to my employer that I'll do my best to be available 24/7. This regulation would restrict my ability to negotiate. Shame on the EU.

Don't worry mate, you can break the law to earn your boss another porsche if you want
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