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Ethereum 2.0 launches

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Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#381

Post by jaked89 »

DennisP wrote: post #110
naringas wrote: post #17

One thing I haven't been able to figure out about proof of stake is this: if one entity somehow manages to control over half to the total ETH tokens, does this enable an attack analogous to bitcoin's 51% problem (which happens when one miner controls over half of the network's raw cpu power)?

A 51% staker who attempted to reverse transactions on ETH2 would be automatically penalized by the destruction of their stake. The network would keep running and the end result would be a large sudden deflation of ETH. On PoW this would be like an attacker's mining rig burning down. A 51% staker who just censored transactions could hold out longer. If the problem were severe, the community would have to decide whethe…

> On PoW this would be like an attacker's mining rig burning down.

A rig burning down will undermine the network's security (as less electricity/capital is invested in securing it), while a stake burning strengthens it (as deflation increases the value of the remaining stake). There's no real Pow equivalent, eth2 is simply superior.

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#382

Post by DennisP »

siraben wrote: post #367

Having worked with Ethereum, especially the low level bytecode, one of the changes I'm most excited for that I don't see mentioned a lot is the addition of eWASM support for nodes. There's many problems with the two dominant smart contract languages Solidity and Vyper, for instance bloated codegen that had to be patched otherwise complex contracts size could not be deployed[0], or more theoretical concerns such as so…

Fwiw there is a proposal to add a return stack to the EVM:

https://github.com/ethereum/EIPs/blob/master/EIPS/eip-2315.m...

Your evm-assembler looks pretty interesting. It's crossed my mind before to write an evm Forth, just for fun, and the lack of a return stack so far has dissuaded me.

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#383

Post by shortstuffsushi »

voxl wrote: post #117
louwrentius wrote: post #46

I don't understand this. I don't understand any of it. I don't understand cryptocurrencies. I don't understand what problems they really solve. > "Ethereum is open access to digital money and data-friendly services for everyone – no matter your background or location. It's a community-built technology behind the cryptocurrency ether (ETH) and thousands of applications you can use today." I can do all these things alr…

People have said a lot to you already, and your only response has been "big words, what about average citizen, don't understand." I think it's time to just say it, Ethereum is not for you and is never going to be, you seem to have an agenda in thinking it's a useless waste of time. Ethereum is a decentralized commerce and application network. And no, you simply cannot do that with anything else but cryptocurrency. It…

> Ethereum is not for you and is never going to be

This is a problem though, because it needs to be "for everyone" for it to really work, right?

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#384

Post by theocs »

ENGNR wrote: post #372
konschubert wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eventually Proof of Work WILL kill Bitcoin - but I have to admit this may be decades out in the future. Right now, most of the mining is financed via inflation. But as this comes to an end, eventually, the cost of mining will be borne by anyone making transactions on the network through tx fees. Somebody has to pay the electricity bill on all these ASICs. EDIT: One could try to argue that high transaction costs are n…

I think the most interesting development is the increasing amount of Bitcoin being wrapped in Ethereum, somewhat validating the store of value idea, I could see it giving Bitcoin some legs But... is it like sports memorabilia at that point, the value is all perception rather than utility and could one day just.. collapse

I think the wrapped BTCs, especially the decentralized approaches to it, are clever links that allow for the transfer of BTC value over to the Ethereum ecosystem.

It's a way of selling BTC for other tokens, extracting and removing its value over time, and instead investing it into DeFi and similar.

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#385

Post by DennisP »

hollerith wrote: post #311
konschubert wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eventually Proof of Work WILL kill Bitcoin - but I have to admit this may be decades out in the future. Right now, most of the mining is financed via inflation. But as this comes to an end, eventually, the cost of mining will be borne by anyone making transactions on the network through tx fees. Somebody has to pay the electricity bill on all these ASICs. EDIT: One could try to argue that high transaction costs are n…

>Eventually Proof of Work WILL kill Bitcoin - but I have to admit this may be decades out in the future. I always thought the hardwired reward for mining, namely, X btc every 10 minutes, is the cause of Bitcoin's wasting electricity. The electricity used is roughly proportional to the hashrate, which in turn is roughly proportional to the price of btc -- until the next halving, which I think is more than one year but…

Bitcoin halvings are every four years. The third one happened in May this year.

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#386

Post by api »

j-pb wrote: post #371

Whenever someone mentions smart contracts I'm instantly reminded of that Jean Luc Picard quote: "I don't know how to communicate this, or even if it is possible to do so... but the question of justice has concerned me greatly of late. And so I say to any creature who may be listening: There can be no justice, so long as laws are absolute. Life itself is an exercise in exceptions."

I think of it this way:

- Every system will be gamed, no exceptions.

- It is impossible for the architects of any system to imagine all the ways it will be gamed.

That's why it's not possible to create fixed laws that are just. Inevitably someone will find a hack that turns the intent of the law around while remaining true to its letter.

This seems to be what dooms both pure libertarian capitalist schemes and pure socialist command economy schemes. In the former case there is not enough structure to contain exploits and no recourse when someone finds a good scam. In the latter case it's impossible for central planners to imagine the results of their plans when they are exposed to opportunistic economic agents. The fatal flaw in both ideologies is their dogmatism. It causes them to fail to adapt when flaws and exploits in the rule system are inevitably found.

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#387

Post by pietjepuk88 »

j-pb wrote: post #371

Whenever someone mentions smart contracts I'm instantly reminded of that Jean Luc Picard quote: "I don't know how to communicate this, or even if it is possible to do so... but the question of justice has concerned me greatly of late. And so I say to any creature who may be listening: There can be no justice, so long as laws are absolute. Life itself is an exercise in exceptions."

I have to say that I'm happy that Ethereum does not do on-chain governance for this very reason. It more or less follows the IETF principle of "rough consensus". [0]

As far as smart contracts are concerned; they're hardly "contracts", but you probably already knew that. Even Vitalik Buterin regrets calling them that way [1].

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rough_consensus

[1]: https://twitter.com/VitalikButerin/status/105116093269977088...

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#388

Post by Karunamon »

pavlov wrote: post #343
deeeeplearning wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because no code in the financial sector has ever screwed up. Oh wait... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_flash_crash Oh Oops... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight_Capital_Group

Exactly. Now imagine how bad it would be if the code handling this kind of money was on Ethereum where bugs are forever and failures irrevocable.

Now compare financial loss from bugs/hackers in smart contracts to financial loss from deception on the part of bankers, brokers, company execs, etc - the exact kind of fraud that's much harder to perpetrate with smart contracts. I'd wager the second number is and always will be orders of magnitude larger.

Enron alone was responsible for ~$74bn of loss.

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#389

Post by fsewe20 »

shortstuffsushi wrote: post #378
kemonocode wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My issue with these kind of questions is that they're hardly ever done in good faith, and they show over and over again whenever crypto is brought up on HN. Crypto has its good uses, and I've relied on it for my livelihood before (and even wished it wasn't just used as a speculation vehicle) when traditional banking couldn't meet my needs, so it's a very Americentric/Eurocentric thing to assume it's only ever good to…

Could you expand on a scenario where "traditional banking couldn't meet your needs," but crypto was able to?

https://twitter.com/arbingsam/status/1333669126125068289

Heres one novel idea I have just seen in my twitter feed for a yearn strategy[1].

You deposit tokens to the yearn contract which employs different strategies to lend/spend those tokens in ways that generate profit for everyone participating in the contract.

This strategy is taking up the rest of the bets that trump wont be re-elected on a decentralised prediction market (blah blah see crypto is all gambling). This ability to be able to program collectively program money is fascinating (and is scary with bugs, but with time hopefully becomes more robust).

[1]https://yearn.finance/vaults

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#390

Post by hollerith »

DennisP wrote: post #385
hollerith wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Eventually Proof of Work WILL kill Bitcoin - but I have to admit this may be decades out in the future. I always thought the hardwired reward for mining, namely, X btc every 10 minutes, is the cause of Bitcoin's wasting electricity. The electricity used is roughly proportional to the hashrate, which in turn is roughly proportional to the price of btc -- until the next halving, which I think is more than one year but…

Bitcoin halvings are every four years. The third one happened in May this year.

I accept and appreciate the correction.
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