ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion' • Hacker News Board

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#381

Post by dmitryminkovsky » Sun, Oct 11, 2020, 12:57 AM UTC

Supermancho wrote: post #374

dmitryminkovsky wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is forcing something? What? Apple is giving Proton Mail the opportunity to come on to their platform and make more revenue. They are not forcing them on to their platform. If Apple didn’t exist, PM would simply not even have this opportunity. Mobs come into your business and demand revenue. Here proton mail is coming into Apple’s business and demanding revenue. Who’s the mob here? And yeah, word choice matters…

> Apple is forcing something? What? Compelling via contractual agreement. This is typically referred to as "forcing" a conditiobn. Classic enforcement of a clause. > Apple is giving Proton Mail the opportunity to come on to their platform and make more revenue. No. That is not what Apple is granting PM. Me putting up a hello world app does not grant me an opportunity to make more (any) revenue. There are additional c…

Having read over your arguments, I'm not sure what I could add. I'm not sure how any of it negates anything I said. I sincerely suspect they're too sophisticated for me. I have no legal training.

> Compelling via contractual agreement. This is typically referred to as "forcing" a conditiobn. Classic enforcement of a clause.

What does this mean? Classic enforcement of a clause? What is wrong with enforcing a clause?

> No. That is not what Apple is granting PM. Me putting up a hello world app does not grant me an opportunity to make more (any) revenue. There are additional concerns and limitations.

What does a hello world app have to do with this? We're talking about apps that have plans for sale and provide value. If you read App Store Guidelines, there is a specific term that says apps must provide users some specific, ongoing value. Hello world would be rejected from the App Store on this ground alone.

> Incorrect. If Apple and Apple USERS didn't exist, PM would not be able to be utilized by those users from an Apple device (since nothing else is special about the platform).

I don't understand this at all. Why add the users into the mix? How is nothing else special about the platform? Everything about the platform is totally special.

> Name calling and no-true-scotsman is all heresay or noise.

Could be possible, for sure. I'm prone to that type of thinking, but I'm not sure this is it. There's something pretty unsettling to me about a grown person, operating a very serious business, writing like they didn't understand the rules of something actually very simple. Is that an "ad-hominem", no-true-scotsman maneuver? Maybe? But it seems very relevant that here we are hashing out the merits of legalese arguments; whereas OP is just like "hey we were, like, selling some plans over there on the side and out of nowhere Apple just comes and demands money!!?" Does this person, who runs Proton Mail, live under a rock? Do they not read tech news? More importantly, do they not review the terms of the agreements they enter? Do they expect Apple not to enforce their contracts? Do they enforce contracts? It just seems fake and disingenuous. That's very significant, in my opinion, because fake and disingenuous people are, by and large, fundamentally bad. But that's just what I think.

Will definitely evaluate your analysis carefully, though.

Thanks a lot.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#382

Post by vinay427 » Sun, Oct 11, 2020, 6:06 AM UTC

crossroadsguy wrote: post #344

TheRealPomax wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the opposite argument to what the problem is right now. It's not that IAP is bad, or that it shouldn't be available. It's that there's no alternative permitted in addition to Apple's IAP model. You're not even allowed to HINT at the fact that you might have alternative ways to pay for the things you want to pay for. Even if your name is hugeservicethateveryoneknows, you can't tell people that you have a websi…

I'd rathe like Apple to do what they are doing with "Sign In With Apple". If you have any other sing up option in your app you have to have Sing in With Apple as well. I don't mind that. If you want to be a payment gateway, compete with other payment gateways. If the app has any other payment method integration, there should be IAP as well. But the problem is: if IAP is available, at least I am never going to opt for…

Your question has been answered multiple times in this thread and the answer appears to clearly be no. Apple will not allow an app to even mention that they can get it at a cheaper price on another device. Personally, I think if Apple will continue to insist on this anti-competitive behavior, iOS users should just pay the 30% more for their subscriptions (so app developers end up with the same revenue) for the benefits you describe unless they're savvy enough to actively look for other payment options on desktop, Android, etc.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#383

Post by LdSGSgvupDV » Sun, Oct 11, 2020, 11:11 AM UTC

DenseComet wrote: post #221

manfredo wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can side load apps. You don't need to go through Google Play.

Well that's just the idea. In reality, most people only install apps from Google Play, and Google has decided that it also wants to enforce a 30% cut [1]. Sideloading provides an option, but for most developers, its not a realistic one (See: Epic putting Fortnite onto the Play Store after trying to get people to install by sideloading). [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/28/technology/google-play-st...

I am not sure for normal app. But, for gaming, it is common to download the app from third party app store.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#384

Post by YetAnotherNick » Sun, Oct 11, 2020, 2:14 PM UTC

nvrspyx wrote: post #193

d1zzy wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 30% is too high What determines what is too high here? If it's about the cost of it (it costs Google/Apple much less money to build and maintain an ecosystem so they can "afford" to do it) wouldn't that imply that there is a huge market opportunity for someone else to build their own ecosystem and charge less? But maybe because that doesn't happen is proof that it may not be "too high".

> imply there is a huge market opportunity for someone else to build their own ecosystem and charge less? Hmmm. Let's see what one would need to do at a bare minimum: - start manufacturing phones - build own OS (or fork Android) - develop own SDK - develop own online store infrastructure - manufacture other devices (e.g. Apple) and/or develop other services (e.g. Google) to complete "ecosystem" The barrier to entry i…

Or just use an alt store installed rooted Android phone. If I know correctly, companies exists which sell phones for this kind of reselling in rebranded way with customisations.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#385

Post by 02020202 » Sun, Oct 11, 2020, 4:49 PM UTC

consp wrote: post #70

02020202 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that is a lot of crap. sing up for internet/telephone/television/... over email or online form and then try to cancel it the same way. go ahead, try it. i'll wait here.

Signing up for shady services which clearly void the law is not the same as not having any rules. The directives mostly concern draconian "send us a passport copy and cancellation letter" when you signed up online or via phone. Those are no longer allowed in most EU countries. If they do not comply you are free to cancel your subscription via the bank/creditcard by revoking their SEPA permission and reporting them to…

ah, well. then i guess upc, tcom, orange...they are just "shady services" ok. good to know. you've change my life.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#386

Post by colejohnson66 » Sun, Oct 11, 2020, 5:06 PM UTC

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #229

dpiers wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about video game consoles? Early in a generation, they are sold at razor-thin (or negative) margins, with the expectation that the manufacturer will recoup losses from licensing fees over the life of the console and that costs will come down in later revisions. If manufacturers lose their substantial licensing fees, they would be forced to charge more upfront for the consoles which is objectively worse for consu…

Would it be objectively worse for consumers? You buy an expensive machine once every ten years and then the games would be more reasonably priced for that whole time? How can you say with certainty that would be worse?

Because consumers don’t think long term. If your console costs $600 but games are $40 while your competitor’s costs $400 but games are $60, the vast majority of consumers will choose the $400/$60 one.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#387

Post by shmerl » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 12:25 AM UTC

kmbfjr wrote: post #297

shmerl wrote: post #277

All this can be solved once and for all by requiring Apple to allow alternatives stores. They got away with this anti-competitive junk for too long.

What? No. Alternative stores will want to be installed by default, and then we're off to the bloatware races.

That's the only way to curb Apple's brazen anti-competitive behavior.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#388

Post by loceng » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 11:59 AM UTC

ksec wrote: post #348

crossroadsguy wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In addition to the annual $100 (if it hasn't changed) developer fee, should they start charging a per install/download fee. What do you say to that? I also don't like Apple's insistence of "only IAP or nothing at all (not even a mention)" but how do you suggest they make profit from the developer side? Or they should not do that at all? It should be 10%? 20? 5%? What will be an acceptable %? Who decides that? What's…

I can bet $100 even if someone could raise a $100 billion they will still have no chance of breaking the current Mono/Duopoly of iOS and Android. As much as I wish there is third option ( I cant believe Microsoft is something I considered, giving what I went though in the 90s ) the Smartphone moat make it pretty much indestructible. I still remember thinking, we could make something better than Microsoft with tens of…

I'd take that bet if it was the right person raising the $100B. It'd have to be an Elon Musk type with $70MM+ to develop the foundational ecosystem first to solve for many of the core problems to counter the various layers of walled garden ecosystems to capture a willingly attentive audience and fan base; I can see the path - I just don't have the starting funds and I can't really even begin to execute on it in a slower fashion due to pain I have that causes severe executive dysfunction - there is a path there and hopefully there is a platform and systems thinker out there with their own funds to put into the same system I've dreamed up over the years.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#389

Post by fakedang » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 11:04 PM UTC

forty wrote: post #271

fakedang wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the same for Android too

No, I believe we can refund ourselves payments on the play store (or at least I'm pretty sure we at least used to)

I meant the calling up an Appstore rep and asking for the refund part. I know you definitely have to have a human to human interaction to get a Playstore refund.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#390

Post by rockostrich » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 3:35 PM UTC

IneffablePigeon wrote: post #146

rockostrich wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, I have trouble understanding how this is any different than how people purchase things in person. When you go to Best Buy and buy a TV they obviously aren't going to let the TV manufacturers advertise that you can buy the TV for cheaper directly from the manufacturer. Obviously it's not a 1-1 comparison, but Apple is giving the apps a similar platform to sell their product.

Well, a slightly flawed analogy is that you bought a Best Buy house and the only way to get a TV is to get it through Best Buy. It's the fact that not only are Apple providing a platform to sell the product, they're also the only distribution method for the product and are slowly clamping down on the loophole of providing a "free" app that requires a subscription bought elsewhere. To continue the flawed analogy, the…

> Well, a slightly flawed analogy is that you bought a Best Buy house and the only way to get a TV is to get it through Best Buy.

Not really. For Epic, you can buy things in Fortnite on other platforms and you get them in the iOS account. Same goes for ProtonMail I assume. The issue is that you can't advertise in the app that users can purchase the things elsewhere.