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Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

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Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#381

Post by ballenf »

ngngngng wrote: post #322
simonh wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft already does exactly this on console. When will we see the Google Stadia game streaming app on the XBOX? Does Microsoft really not take a cut of VBucks bought on the Microsoft store? This is just three big corporations fighting over their respective slices of the pie, if you think any of this is being said or done for your benefit I’m sure Epic has a plentiful supply of really tasty Koolaid for you. But no…

> Microsoft already does exactly this on console. I never thought about it like this. It could be viewed differently because the Xbox is a game console and the iphone is a general handheld computer, but perhaps it should be illegal to restrict users installing software on your device by any means they choose, though there's no reason for you to support those means.

Has apple ever blocked or threatened anyone for developing a rival OS? For an OS that could run on iPhones to be developed, it seems pretty clear that Apple would absolutely have to "support those means" in terms of publishing low level hardware and security chip specs. And distributing secret keys or offering an agnostic signing service.

But what I think you mean to propose is a restriction at the software level, not hardware level. That anyone who sells an operating system must allow any app to be installed within that OS. I think we leave it as an exercise for the reader to define "operating system" when it comes to our increasingly "smart" homes and cars.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#382

Post by simonh »

ngngngng wrote: post #322
simonh wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft already does exactly this on console. When will we see the Google Stadia game streaming app on the XBOX? Does Microsoft really not take a cut of VBucks bought on the Microsoft store? This is just three big corporations fighting over their respective slices of the pie, if you think any of this is being said or done for your benefit I’m sure Epic has a plentiful supply of really tasty Koolaid for you. But no…

> Microsoft already does exactly this on console. I never thought about it like this. It could be viewed differently because the Xbox is a game console and the iphone is a general handheld computer, but perhaps it should be illegal to restrict users installing software on your device by any means they choose, though there's no reason for you to support those means.

Who says the iPhone is a general platform? It’s not, it’s a closed platform with specific features designed and implemented by its manufacturer. One of those features is a mechanism for installing additional software modules.

What is an open platform and how does it get defined? Installing software is a feature implemented by the manufacturer. Should we really be requiring Apple or any manufacturer, by law, to implement specific defined features to support and enable side loading and management of external apps. Who gets to define those features and say which products should or shouldn’t have them? Who gets to certify compliance? Who gets to specify open as a technical standard that can actually be implemented?

If this had been done in the 80s, we’d probably still be stuck with consoles having an 80s style cartridge slot on them, with specs written in legislation and updatable only by government committee.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#383

Post by cvandebroek »

lordleft wrote: post #6

Imagine if Microsoft did this on PCs. a) prohibiting the installation of non-windows store software (sideloading) and b) insisting that all purchases done via apps give them a 30% cut. I think this is a ridiculous practice on the behalf of Apple.

Imagine Epic doing the same, with a 20% cut through the Epic Game Store, for PC games. And to ensure they are the Gatekeeper, they pay guarantees to Publishers/Developers to exclude retail and other platforms.

Oopps... They do exactly this.

This is not to defend Apple nor Google. But Epic is by no means better, just not as big as A/G.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#384

Post by growse »

__d wrote: post #182
dessant wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People often accept restrictions on their freedom, but that does not mean those limitations aren't harmful. We should be able to install what we want on a general purpose computing device. You can already see the Apple mentality creeping into other companies like Mozilla, who suddenly find it acceptable to limit user freedom for questionable reasons, and the normalization of stripped user liberties that Apple champio…

There's no law preventing anyone selling a smart phone without the limitations on your freedom you find objectionable. But similarly, there's no law requiring anyone to sell products that allow you to do whatever you want with them once they've been bought. You can argue for such a law, but competition law is a pretty weak place to start. Arguably, Apple is creating a market by their policies: the fact that it's not…

The current legal position / ambiguity is less interesting than the moral and principled question: do we want to live in a free market captialist society where manufacturers (typically with the upper hand in the retail power imbalance) get to continue to exert control over my property once I've come to own it through a legal transaction?

Either we do, in which case what Apple is doing in perfectly reasonable, as is Walmart selling fridges that explode when you put someone else's milk in them ("It's in the contract!"), or it isn't.

Things like the first sale doctrine give an insight into past legal thinking suggesting the latter. But it's far from simple to discern by just looking at the law.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#385

Post by ballenf »

ffggvv wrote: post #334
simonh wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft already does exactly this on console. When will we see the Google Stadia game streaming app on the XBOX? Does Microsoft really not take a cut of VBucks bought on the Microsoft store? This is just three big corporations fighting over their respective slices of the pie, if you think any of this is being said or done for your benefit I’m sure Epic has a plentiful supply of really tasty Koolaid for you. But no…

i’m not sure it’s fair to equate a general computing platform to a game system

I'm not sure it's fair to equate smartphones to general computing platforms, regardless of the marketing speak surrounding the newest iPads.

Personally, I like iPhones precisely because they're not general purpose platforms. I'm also not sure the phrase "general computing platform" can even be well-defined in the era of "smart" everything.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#386

Post by Spooky23 »

bencollier49 wrote: post #176
Spooky23 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try playing Minecraft between your non-Windows 10 PC and anything mobile, or between anything and a Mac.

My kids both have Rasberry Pis running Gentoo and we play together, with me on a Mac (my last Mac, 2015 was the peak) via our shared server in the study.

My kids and their friends have PS4s, Switches, iOS, Mac, PC.

There’s bullshit with each platform. PS4 can play, but not with servers, Mac can do Java, nothing else can but PC, etc.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#387

Post by xnyan »

ernst_klim wrote: post #262
kqvamxurcagg wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a consumer, why can't there be an alternative App Store on IoS if I don't like the Apple terms? Apple shouldn't force consumers and developers to provide them with 30%.

If you don't like the service or product, don't buy it. There are Android, Sailfish, Postmarket, Mer. It's extremely unethical in my opinion to force some service provider to adjust the service to your needs/preferences.

Apple has a long history of using their leverage and power to extract more value from their business relationships when they can.In what way is it unethical to meet Apple on their own terms?

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#388

Post by jpindar »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #209

Has anyone tried having work meetings on Fortnite custom rooms? Seems like a fun concept, not sure how it works in practice (are there other games that would be better for avatar-based private meetings?)

Sinespace is trying to sell companies on this, I don't know how successful they've been.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1nBlm2HKKY&feature=youtu.be

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#389

Post by chipotle_coyote »

One of the biggest hurdles in trying to take antitrust action against Apple, I suspect, will be in proving that App Store policies cause harm to consumers rather than developers. There seem to be HN-favored narratives of "iOS users would rise up against the walled garden if they only understood" and "iOS users are too stupid and sheeplike to understand and rise up," but there is a more prosaic narrative of "iOS users like having one place to go that offers hundreds of thousands applications that are, by the standards of just fifteen years ago, dirt cheap."

Epic is implicitly making the case that consumers are harmed by having to pay $9.99 instead of $7.99 for in-game tchotchkes, but even as someone who's grown pretty skeptical of Apple's approach to the App Store in recent years, that strikes me as a reach. They were manifestly not losing money under the existing pricing agreement, and their fight here sure seems to be "we don't want to share that much revenue with Apple" rather than something akin to Hey's "Apple's revenue share materially harms our business". In-app purchase policies are arguably where Apple's policies are at their worst, but I have serious doubts whether Epic Games is a great standard-bearer to line up behind in a fight for fair business practices.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#390

Post by mulmen »

hu3 wrote: post #308
mulmen wrote: post #277

I get hung up in the semantics of monopoly. I don't think it really applies here because Android exists. But if we frame this as an anti-competitive question I think it is very clear Apple's practices are anti-competitive. I'm not a fan of diluting the term "monopoly", I think we need modern laws to encourage competition. Maybe I just need to get over my pedantry.

Android lets you install apps from any site without hassle. And those apps can charge you money without giving Google a single dime.

Sure but does that mean Apple's actions are not anti-competitive?
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