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Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

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Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#381

Post by thaumasiotes »

yumraj wrote: post #370
DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The _neu_-nuclear powers possess at most a few hundred warheads and lack true intercontinental delivery systems. They might kill a few million people but the damage will be localised. All of the countries that could - and would (given the right kind of existential threat posed by another) kill a few _hundred million_ people in even a limited exchange are on the council. There are other, non-nuclear states that could…

I obviously didn't mean all. India, Japan, Germany and perhaps a couple of others, such as South Africa and Brazil, deserve to have permanent status to have a more even security council. It's more an economic issue than a nuclear issue IMO. And, I think the veto should be done away with.

> Japan... deserve[s] to have permanent status to have a more even security council.

I'm imagining whether China might veto this...

;)

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#382

Post by jankassens »

mamon wrote: post #310
orf wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What evidence do you have that the labor laws are a response to polish domination of freight, or that those laws would would somehow only cause polish carriers to become unprofitable?

It was explicitly stated by French president Macron, that the goal is to end Polish dominance in truck freight :) Basically the law change is this: Now, if you are Polish truck driver employed in Poland, you are subject to Polish tax and labor codes, including things like tax rate, minimum wage, etc. What France wants (and what was passed, but is not in effect yet) is that if said truck driver crosses the border of a…

Would it also be ridiculous if a factory worker would be employed in one country and just cross the border to do a bit of factory work? All kinds of other local laws apply just by entering a country. How is minimum wage different?

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#383

Post by elchupanebre »

pron wrote: post #247
dijit wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you’ve drunk the kool-aid a little. Outside of complex projects headed by PhD compsci students (who used to learn java in uni but those courses are now taught in python) there isn’t a whole lot of mindshare going towards java these days. At least in regards to new FOSS projects. I can say that my company’s use of java is diminishing rapidly over the last 5 years too. No matter what you think of the technologi…

> I think you’ve drunk the kool-aid a little. Don't know about kool-aid, but if you want to do interesting platform work -- on GC, compilers or low-overhead observability -- you could work at Microsoft on .NET, at Google on V8 (or Go), or at Mozilla on WebAssembly, but the truly cutting-edge, state-of-the-art work is done at Oracle on the JDK (and related projects like Graal), which is where I get to lead a project t…

Here is my fickle opinion of course not reflecting of market shifts.

A couple of years ago I was a CTO of a midsized company which had a misfortune of building the main product on top of Oracle DB (decision was made before me).

Oracle the database is great: performant, scalable. A bit pricey and complex to manage but that's acceptable for what it delivers.

Oracle the company is absolutely horrible. I've never dealt with anyone worse than Oracle.

Just one example: we accidentally turned on a feature called "advanced data guard" or some such. The DB is large and complex, it was a mistake of one of our DBAs who reported it right away. We never used the feature and could prove it with logs. Nevertheless Oracle demanded us to pay close to $1m or they would shut us down: we would have to discontinue the use of the entire DB in 30 days which was impossible.

The funny thing is that once ADG is turned on it cannot be turned off. Which made me suspect that such traps were created on purpose.

We ended up paying less than $1m but in the form of purchasing their cloud services. Apparently that's how their sales people get commissions.

But, dear Oracle, I've learned my lesson. Never again will I use anything with Oracle name on it. No company under my leadership will use anything Oracle. Not even Java or MySQL. Regardless of the technical merits of the product. Oracle is too underhanded to be trusted.

P.S. We also decided against using the Oracle cloud services we paid for. We just let it sit there, never even logged in. I'm sure Oracle reported their cloud as growing.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#384

Post by solidsnack9000 »

jankassens wrote: post #382
mamon wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was explicitly stated by French president Macron, that the goal is to end Polish dominance in truck freight :) Basically the law change is this: Now, if you are Polish truck driver employed in Poland, you are subject to Polish tax and labor codes, including things like tax rate, minimum wage, etc. What France wants (and what was passed, but is not in effect yet) is that if said truck driver crosses the border of a…

Would it also be ridiculous if a factory worker would be employed in one country and just cross the border to do a bit of factory work? All kinds of other local laws apply just by entering a country. How is minimum wage different?

Would it also be ridiculous if a factory worker would be employed in one country and just cross the border to do a bit of factory work?

It would be ridiculous, because the factory worker would be working at a company domiciled in the other country. That is because, a company in one country can not just open a factory in another country without having an entity in the latter country.

Consider an alternative situation: Franz is employed in Hungary as a writer of fiction, but crosses into Austria many days and uses wifi to work there. Should Franz be paid Austrian minimum wage?

All kinds of other local laws apply just by entering a country.

Local laws do apply, but generally one can not just enter another country and work there. Very often one is specifically prohibited from working in another country without a visa.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#385

Post by dgoldstein0 »

dilyevsky wrote: post #377
DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HFT gigs I’ve looked at were all C++, some even Rust now - because they don’t want the risk of a long GC pause messing up a trade (which means Java, .NET, and Go are right-out).

Go uses tri-color mark-and-sweep gc that runs concurrently and its latency is extremely short compared to .net and java (probably still not short enough to be put in the critical path of hft order processor tho). Edit: I'm also confident you can ensure Go’s gc doesn’t run when you don’t want it to so there’s that.

This may be true but conventional wisdom against using anything GC'ed for real-time applications (like HFT or aerospace stuff) is going to mean even if go's gc is good enough, using any gc'ed language for these apps is going to be extremely rare for years if not decades. Seems far more likely that rust will chisel away at that market than golang or any other gc'ed language.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#386

Post by oselhn »

vfc1 wrote: post #23

The Java ecosystem has been slowly dying for years, it's already the new Cobol at this stage. I have the impression that a lot of the mindshare has switched to the Node and Javascript ecosystem, especially the frontend devs, via the Typescript / Angular path, which is a natural path to Java developers due to the comfort given by familiar concepts like static types, classes, etc. When I used to do Java, I always found…

Recently started working on Typescript project and it looks to me like java with really poor tooling, C++ like compilation times and huge mess in libraries (i.e. how to determine which version of @types package I need). I think that Typescript is really step back from java.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#387

Post by ivan_gammel »

ngcc_hk wrote: post #343
ergothus wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some of these people who compare Java to Cobol have no idea....at this point Java is so widely used in the enterprise that it’s foolhardy to think that Java will disappear anytime soon. Isn't that PART of the Java to Cobol comparison? Someone making that comparison wouldn't be saying that Java will disappear anytime soon.

COBOL is a valid comparison in terms of its space occupied and the verbosity the language is. The difference is cobol is really mainframe era and java is mini / unix era. Its client side except via phone is largely gone. But like cobol still in mainframe apps, so would be java. We do not see that gone as mini/unix not dying. The windows server running java is an area I am not sure and not much encountered. But window…

I’ve actually seen enterprise apps on Java deployed on a Windows server in some big banks.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#388

Post by hestefisk »

lkrubner wrote: post #253
dtech wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me it's more a lesson about how unanimous votes, or unanimous - N can become problematic. In the EU the same is happening. Poland and Hungary have found a loophole allowing them to ignore EU rules and sanctions while still profiting from subsidies and market access. All sanctions against a member state require unanimous-1 (all states except the sanctioned member) votes and Poland is vetoing all sanctions against…

The irony is that Poland was once the #1 or #2 power in Europe, but they were destroyed by unanimous voting. Want to raise taxes to build an army to repel foreign invasion? Everyone agrees, except that one person too far from Russia to care, and the taxes get vetoed, so Russia wins, thus Poland was destroyed. The Poles know how dangerous unanimity is.

What’s ironic is that Poland fought for years to become a member of the single market, after years of stagflation. They profited massively in terms of growth and wealth. Now after X years of membership they no longer want to play ball and think it is ok to corrupt the system. The same goes for Hungary after years of iron fist Soviet rule. It’s deeply tiring and begs the question whether the EU would be better without them.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#389

Post by hestefisk »

781 wrote: post #249
dtech wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me it's more a lesson about how unanimous votes, or unanimous - N can become problematic. In the EU the same is happening. Poland and Hungary have found a loophole allowing them to ignore EU rules and sanctions while still profiting from subsidies and market access. All sanctions against a member state require unanimous-1 (all states except the sanctioned member) votes and Poland is vetoing all sanctions against…

France broke the EU deficit rules for over a decade. Everybody talked about it, but nobody acted. If a EU state refuses to do a thing, that's basically it. https://piie.com/blogs/realtime-economic-issues-watch/france...

Not true. The commission can chose to sue any memberships state in the European high court. Denmark was sued by EU for not allowing sale of tin can drinks (beers, soft drinks) in Denmark due to environmental concerns. It was seen as a kind of protectionism.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#390

Post by andrewshadura »

dwaite wrote: post #145
threeseed wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OpenJDK is an open distribution and preinstalled on all major operating systems and is now the standard JVM for most developers. We even have open distributions of it e.g. Amazon Coretto. GraalVM isn't even at version 1.0 so nothing at all to worry about.

> OpenJDK is an open distribution and preinstalled on all major operating systems My understanding is that it is preinstalled on chrome os and android, but is not preinstalled for any major linux distribution, is a separate third-party download for windows and Mac, and is unavailable for iOS.

On the contrary, Linux distributions ship only OpenJDK.
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