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Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System

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Re: Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System

#381

Post by zachd1_618 »

BugsJustFindMe wrote: post #74
8_hours_ago wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the rockets fly with a heavily customized Linux install My jaw hit the floor the first time I heard this. Why Linux instead of an RTOS?? Apparently Tesla's autopilot also runs Linux, which seems like a huge accident waiting to happen (pun intended).

As a person who used to write navigation and control software for autonomous vehicles who occasionally gets downvoted for telling people that you really don't need a fancy RTOS for this stuff, you really don't need a fancy RTOS for this stuff. Linux is a very common platform for highly responsive robotic systems. I promise that their pid control isn't an Electron app.

+1. I wrote some near flight software for an instrument using Ubuntu with a RT patch on modern hardware, in parallel with another team that took the traditional approach. Not to brag, but our “undeterministic” system ran far more reliably than the real time one that didn’t have the advantage of modern application libraries. Plus, even though we had that pesky operating system in the way, we ran on blazing fast modern architectures and were actually more deterministic than the slow as hell hardware we were benchmarking against.

I’ve seen the same pattern a few other times. Slow, hand built, rad hard systems CAN be more stable and demonstratively safer... but that is rarely the case and the effort required to get such a system right is orders of magnitude greater than using standard “undeterministic” systems. That engineering effort can be better spent innovating and building fundamentally more advanced solutions.

Just my experience. Just my opinion

Re: Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System

#382

Post by noselasd »

jimmaswell wrote: post #356
eecc wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if you’re trolling or not. Well played

What would be particularly bad about running a real time application like that on an Arduino? Isn't that what they're made for?

Arduino boards arn't designed to operate in a rugged environment such as a car which is a pretty hostile environment regarding vibrations, electro magnetic interference and thermal cycling.

Re: Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System

#384

Post by digi_owl »

bipson wrote: post #114
sz4kerto wrote: post #8

Why is this interesting or surprising? Of course almost all challengers have hacky tech under the hood because they don't have the resources. Winning from that position is possible not because of generally better tech but by delivering something that the incumbents don't. Remember the demo of the first iPhone (vs the huge expertise of Nokia). Or how Microsoft won the desktop starting from a single user, cooperative m…

Especially considering that the engineer was partially blaming Bosch as a supplier that made these processes necessary. Bosch supplies VW (includes Audi, Seat, Skoda, ...) and various other large incumbents, as one of the biggest car manufacturer supplier. Why do people think they are considerably better off? Their practices are often equally ridiculous and dangerous. As a rat in that cage you do whatever you need to…

Not sure if any of those brands try to blast firmware updates over the net with a "push to prod" mentality...

Re: Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System

#385

Post by berti »

joering2 wrote: post #140
agumonkey wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure anything embedded is almost nothing like the pre-modified stock. The few paper I've read from embedded people is that they know how and will strip everything down until things are like they need.

Ubuntu and Centos come pretty naked; what would you strip and why? Im asking because I run few instances with very heavy traffic and have no issues whatsoever. Just added nano and fail2ban and it runs with no issues for about 2 years now.

Those two, particularly Ubuntu, are the opposite of naked. Try something like Arch.

Re: Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System

#386

Post by freeflight »

ddevault wrote: post #11

I used to work at SpaceX on the team that did a piece of software called "WarpDrive". It was a massive monolithic ASP.NET application, with large swaths done with ASP.NET WebForms and a slow frontier of ASP.NET MVC gradually growing when I was working there. This application was responsible for practically everything that ran the factory: inventory, supply chain management, cost analysis, etc. Elon is a big Windows f…

> Thankfully the rockets fly with a heavily customized Linux install.

That's good to know. When I saw the inside of the Dragon capsule, with its shiny touch controls, I was already imagining Astronauts having to deal with installing Android updates on their control tablets while mid-flight, or some other crazy stuff along those lines.

Re: Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System

#387

Post by Retric »

dfox wrote: post #236
sjg007 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean the entertainment system ideally should not be connected to the engine/drive train systems. That would be a risk management strategy.

There is difference between entertainment system and infotainment system. Infotainment systems are increasingly used as primary UI for almost anything on car that is not controlled by steering wheel and pedals and thus has to be able to communicate with almost everxthing that is in the car. Tesla is pretty extreme example of this, but it works this way for most manufacturers.

That’s true, but only part of the story.

If the only interaction between the automated systems and the braking system is to apply more braking power and the cars breaks can significantly overpower the engine then nothing the infotainment system can do would prevent the car from coming to a complete stop.

Similarly, if the power steering was limited to applying say 5lb of force to the steering wheel (as felt by someone holding the outer edge) a driver could overpower any steering adjustments with minimal effort.

With just those two choices the risks associated with hacking the car dramatically decrease. Yes, the car could prevent someone moving, but that’s also an inherent risk from engine failure.

Re: Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System

#388

Post by rrcaptain »

hobls wrote: post #182
joering2 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ubuntu and Centos come pretty naked; what would you strip and why? Im asking because I run few instances with very heavy traffic and have no issues whatsoever. Just added nano and fail2ban and it runs with no issues for about 2 years now.

Ubuntu is certainly not known as a lightweight distro.

That's because "lightweight" to Linux nerds is more like "weight of light" than "light of weight".

Re: Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System

#389

Post by rrcaptain »

misiti3780 wrote: post #163
ddevault wrote: post #11

I used to work at SpaceX on the team that did a piece of software called "WarpDrive". It was a massive monolithic ASP.NET application, with large swaths done with ASP.NET WebForms and a slow frontier of ASP.NET MVC gradually growing when I was working there. This application was responsible for practically everything that ran the factory: inventory, supply chain management, cost analysis, etc. Elon is a big Windows f…

>Elon is a big Windows fan and pushed hard to run the whole shop on Microsoft tech wow - this is surprising to me and wasnt mentioned in the biography - any ideas why ?

Because it runs counter to the "epic nerd" persona Musk was trying to build with his authorized biography. Windows isn't cool right now.

Re: Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System

#390

Post by cma »

joering2 wrote: post #140
agumonkey wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure anything embedded is almost nothing like the pre-modified stock. The few paper I've read from embedded people is that they know how and will strip everything down until things are like they need.

Ubuntu and Centos come pretty naked; what would you strip and why? Im asking because I run few instances with very heavy traffic and have no issues whatsoever. Just added nano and fail2ban and it runs with no issues for about 2 years now.

The Ubuntu message of the day when you log in on a shell runs curl to feed in advertisements. Pretty big attack surface.
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