European parliament committee approves vote on ‘disastrous’ copyright bill • Hacker News Board

Re: European parliament committee approves vote on ‘disastrous’ copyright bill

#381

Post by chillee » Thu, Jun 21, 2018, 1:09 AM UTC

llcoolv wrote: post #377

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a way to try to win the debate on the cheap. Whether it works or not depends on the other party in the debate.

and on the mental and cultural capacity of the spectators :)

See social shaming here[1].

>Social shaming also isn’t an argument. It’s a demand for listeners to place someone outside the boundary of people who deserve to be heard; to classify them as so repugnant that arguing with them is only dignifying them. If it works, supporting one side of an argument imposes so much reputational cost that only a few weirdos dare to do it, it sinks outside the Overton Window, and the other side wins by default.

> Nobody expects this to convince anyone... People who use this strategy know exactly what they’re doing and are often quite successful. The goal is not to convince their opponents, or even to hurt their opponent’s feelings, but to demonstrate social norms to bystanders.

[1]: http://slatestarcodex.com/2018/05/08/varieties-of-argumentat...

Re: European parliament committee approves vote on ‘disastrous’ copyright bill

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Post by ubernostrum » Thu, Jun 21, 2018, 3:07 AM UTC

rocketraman wrote: post #304

srah763 wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because her entire “philosophy” is egotistical selfishness, in her own words. So the opposite of good and profoundly ignorant. No point in rehashing 1000 year old debates that were settled long ago on this type of behavior.

This comment is profoundly ignorant. You're dismissing her philosophy because of two descriptive words (and not even the best two, which would probably be "rational selfishness"), which you have decided are the "opposite of good" simply because history says they are? That's just an appeal to tradition: plenty of people have been wrong about plenty of things throughout history, especially in the areas of morality and…

I find Ayn Rand to be quite similar to Karl Marx.

Both use cherry-picking and unfalsifiable approaches to history and sociology to construct a narrative in which there are two classes: the noble, heroic people who produce all the value; and the awful, leeching parasites who attempt to co-opt that value for their own use.

The differences between them are rooted entirely in which class each views as noble and value-producing versus which is parasitical.

Re: European parliament committee approves vote on ‘disastrous’ copyright bill

#383

Post by vsl » Thu, Jun 21, 2018, 5:53 AM UTC

Sammi wrote: post #363

growlist wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This claim that the EU/predecessor organisations have secured the peace since WW2 is often made but I think is impossible to verify, since we have no way of rerunning history without the EU in place. Some point to NATO as far more significant a guarantor of peace than the EU.

Yes correlation does not mean causation. But sometimes the correlation is so obvious that it becomes hard to ignore. So what I would say is this: Ignore this correlation at your mortal peril. The risk is that of total war.

Yet the folks who make this assertion about EU helpfulness are all too happy to ignore the correlation with NATO.

Re: European parliament committee approves vote on ‘disastrous’ copyright bill

#384

Post by vsl » Thu, Jun 21, 2018, 5:55 AM UTC

leifg wrote: post #107

As a EU citizen I have always been (and still am) a strong advocate for the European Union. I think the founding of the European Union was one of the greatest things that could ever happen to European citizens. I full heartedly believe this institution played a major role in retaining the piece after World War 2. The concept of open borders in (most of) Europe is something I would never want to miss. But seeing the l…

Thanks for calling me racist because I think EU should follow its own rules.

Re: European parliament committee approves vote on ‘disastrous’ copyright bill

#385

Post by vsl » Thu, Jun 21, 2018, 6:03 AM UTC

pergadad wrote: post #347

leifg wrote: post #107

As a EU citizen I have always been (and still am) a strong advocate for the European Union. I think the founding of the European Union was one of the greatest things that could ever happen to European citizens. I full heartedly believe this institution played a major role in retaining the piece after World War 2. The concept of open borders in (most of) Europe is something I would never want to miss. But seeing the l…

It's a bit more complex. The EU produces a huge amount of legislation, but you only hear about the most weird/funny/outrageous one. Most things go through smoothly because they are so technical or orln topics that no one cares. Then once in a while you have this kind which is in some ways a big progress. Look at the education provisions in there. But here's how the EU works: the Commission (civil service) proposes a…

> it basically never happens that something is decided at EU level that one (or several) countries strongly disagree with

That’s straight up delusional. Latest example I cared for: the guns restriction imposed on Czechia against its will, in an area EU has no business regulating in the first place, with repeated abuse of procedure. So egregious that Czechia sued over it.

Never happens. (And as I learned from another comment here, I’m apparently a racist now for not liking this sort of abuses...)

But then, your bias is pretty obvious from calling Orban a “tyrant”. You may not like his politics, he’s not much of a EU-loving leftist for sure, but come on.

Re: European parliament committee approves vote on ‘disastrous’ copyright bill

#386

Post by vsl » Thu, Jun 21, 2018, 6:08 AM UTC

Sammi wrote: post #189

cc-d wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I full heartedly believe this institution played a major role in retaining the piece after World War 2 I think you are getting the UN/NATO and EU confused, friend. The rest of your post is spot on.

The two aren't mutually exclusive, so careful you don't set up a false dichotomy. And the EU as since it inception always been about making European nations interdependent, so that they cannot wage war against each other. As the original proposal for precursor to the EU said: "The solidarity in production thus established will make it plain that any war between France and Germany becomes not merely unthinkable, but m…

Agreed. It definitely plays a role. So does NATO. So Internet.

But you all too often hear the false claim that EU made Europe peaceful, so the above jab should be seen in the same lights: equally inaccurate explanation meant to iLlustrate the fallacy.

Re: European parliament committee approves vote on ‘disastrous’ copyright bill

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Post by vsl » Thu, Jun 21, 2018, 6:14 AM UTC

ginko wrote: post #156

nickik wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry but this is just not a credible story. The current day EU simply did not exist for most of Post-WW, so it can absolutely not have been a reason why there was no war. I am in favor of things like free movement of goods and services. I also in favor working together on things like European Space Agency. However these sudo-democratic want-be centralized state is totally against the history of European has alre…

>However these sudo-democratic want-be centralized state is totally against the history of European has already caused a endless serious of disaster and mismanagement. How is the EU particularly undemocratic? I'm Austrian and most of the European branches map relatively well to our own federal structure. (Nationalrat -> European parliament, Government -> Commission, Bundesrat -> Council(although that one has more pow…

> How is the EU particularly undemocratic?

It is democracy on paper only. For a functional democracy, oversight is crucial. That requires press attention so that people are aware of how their representatives follow their will.

You never hear about directives in the works, there’s too much of it, and it happens far away. Most of it is prepared by committees and The EU parliament just rubberstamps it. Most of the time, people learn about new legislative when it is a done deal.

You only here about the worst offenders, like this one. And even that is not a topic of mainstream coverage. Our bubble writes about it. The public in general remains unaware.

How is that a well working democracy?

Re: European parliament committee approves vote on ‘disastrous’ copyright bill

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Post by espadrine » Thu, Jun 21, 2018, 7:28 AM UTC

HumanDrivenDev wrote: post #379

espadrine wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unsurprisingly, this law was most pushed by anti-EU right-wing politicians that somehow got elected as MEP, such as Marie-Christine Boutonnet[0] and Gilles Lebreton[1]. All French MEPs of the European Parliament Committee on Legal Affairs but one are right-wing eurosceptics, and for this law[2]. (Aside, the right-wing extremists MEPs were easily recognized during the Zuckerberg hearing, as their questions focused exc…

Restricting so-called "hate speech" is censorship. Perhaps it's censorship you agree with, but then at least have the integrity to forthrightly say you agree with censorship.

The definition of censorship only applies to government decisions.

A non-governmental entity can only, by definition, censor something if mandated by the government.

Re: European parliament committee approves vote on ‘disastrous’ copyright bill

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Post by nailer » Thu, Jun 21, 2018, 7:51 AM UTC

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #178

nailer wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hate them as most people in the UK do (I've never voted for them and wouldn't either), UKIP already resolved this (in a far more permanent way than the greens) by ensuring EU law does not apply to the UK in future.

What are you going to do next time the UK parliament passes a law you don't like? Dissolve the United Kingdom?

Campaign to overturn it - which I feel is more likely to be successful here than in EU, which is comprised of member states with a wide variety of values.

Re: European parliament committee approves vote on ‘disastrous’ copyright bill

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Post by AsyncAwait » Thu, Jun 21, 2018, 8:03 AM UTC

michaelmrose wrote: post #345

AsyncAwait wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Libertarian doesn't mean "right-wing", it just was co-opted as such, in fact there are many left-wing libertarians.

Many as in 2%? There are certainly some ideas of merit but supporting politicians that push it seems to inevitably involve benefiting the right who is pushing for many agendas that will personally damage me and mine so I cannot in good conscience do so.

In Europe, it's many, in the U.S. not so much. That's why most politicians you see are of the right-wing variety.

And you seem to be misunderstanding. Left-wing libertarians do not have the same set of ideas as the right-wing ones, you seem to think that there is "libertarianism" and that I am saying that some on the left also stand for those ideas that those on the right, (the only real area of agreement is an anti-war stance).

Left libertarianism is mostly about personal freedom, as opposed to authoritarianism, while still being in favor of social programs, oppose privatization of public services etc. You should read up on it.