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Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

theintercept.com

381–390 of 527 posts

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#381
post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This further reinforces the notion that the modern left has embraced essentialism, moralization, and Utopian ideology: * reducing people to (for example and more commonly than ever) ethnic and religious identities * turning every issue into a moral issue where decisions are separated into right and wrong with a distinct lack of nuance and thoughtful consideration * attacking those that don't share in your Utopian ide…

Very insightful comment, I suppose you represent the modern, alternative right movement then? This is a very big problem, you can't have bags like "the left" or "the right" because that's too general to represent any meaningful philosophy. As an example, many people would argue Clinton is left. I'd argue she's on the center right of the spectrum, if not further and would certainly not refer to her as left-wing in gen…

I seek to represent those interested in a moderated and careful approach to moral dilemmas, where the restraints of ideological extremism and tribalism are left at the door.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#382
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, what’s the alternate option? If the US hadn’t been the “police” of the world. It could have been Russia or China or India, would we rather have had them? And don’t say Europe unless you consider France and the U.K. and others and their things. We don’t live on a vacuum. If you create one, someone will fill it. I am loath to think of how much worse things could be despite the idiotic wars of Obama and W., I thin…

Oh come on. The US established itself as 'the world police' and built 900+ military bases around the globe to protect its own financial interests at the point of a gun. Let's not pretend it does any of this shit out of altruism.

In many cases the countries have asked for the bases though. This is still happening today https://www.armytimes.com/news/2018/05/29/why-poland-wants-a...

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#383

I don't see anything wrong for a company of a particular country helping their military. GE, Siemens, Mitsubishi and all tech giants of that era did that with pride during WWII. Then why can't Google, Facebook for USA? Perhaps the illusion of globalization is making us perceive Google, Facebook and other international giants as global companies. Although, geniuses from around the world have significant contributions…

I think if we were currently fighting the 3rd Reich people might be more for it. But currently the USA has a massive military for no purpose, which is often used to conduct evil, and thus some people do not want to aid it.

I'd argue that the purpose is to act as a deterrent against countries that might otherwise think of invading their neighbors or things along those lines, but it's reasonable to think that the cost of such of large military is not worth the benefits.

It's also one of the US's largest employers.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You were suggesting killing civilians, in order to may be get a 'bad guy', which amounts to a war crime.

and when you bomb a military base you are killing non-combatants. Cooks, mechanics, administrators, a completely un-associated postie or truck driver might be delivering a parcel or supplies to the base. These do not constitute war crimes but occupy this nebulous grey area named "collateral damage" at best and "war crimes" at worst. In this case we are assuming that several if not many enemy commanders are attending…

Well, consider where these drones would be most likely used, a lot of these recent bombing campaigns are taking place in Yemen these days, a country that has not attacked the U.S. and yet the U.S. is assisting Saudi Arabia there to conduct the strikes, even the ones where they know the majority would be civilians, including in the use of double-taps.

I'd argue that when you're the aggressor and are assisting a country that is one of the biggest human rights abusers on the planet, you do not get to claim moral superiority or any sort of gray area, you're just wrong and a war criminal, that's why I used the terminology.

I don't think the U.S. is in any position to judge how much someone's life is "worth", especially when not acting in self-defense, as in the case of Yemen, (or any recent U.S. intervention for that matter).

I can sort of see you point in the more general case, but in this case, where this drone would be used by the U.S. for illegal invasions, I can't.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#386
The military is going to deploy deep learning on their drones, with or without Google's help.

I'd rather have more people working on the problem than fewer. More scrutiny should, at least, improve the work and reduce errors in the models (and, hopefully, that leads to fewer casualties)

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#387
post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think that if part of Google's work were to make it more precise, would that be less evil?

If they could make sure they are killing only the guy they wanted, and act on that using pinpoint precision? Uh, actually, now that you mentioned it, that would be even more scary. That would be totally consequence free assassination device. At least the civilian casualties put some lid on the tendency to wantonly fly around in glorified RC planes murdering people. The way I see it, if you are intending to assassinat…

Every military technology from bows and arrows to GPS is doing exactly what you are objecting to by lowering the danger to the attacker and increasing the success of a potential attack. Drones are an incremental step in that process. It just seems strange to me to draw the specific line at drones when we are seemingly fine with other advancements that are almost identical in effect like stealth technology. Once again, my argument is not that drones are good. My argument is that drones are not inherently more evil than other weapons.

I completely agree with your last three paragraphs. But once again, none of that is specific to drones. It is true whether the trigger is pulled by special forces soldier from feet away, from an manned aircraft thousands of feet in the air, or a pilot in trailer hundreds of miles away.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#388
post #375
post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You need a military in order to prevent other people from bombing your country. You absolutely do not need to bomb other people, and if fact if your goal is to not get bombed, not bombing other people might be your best option for a bunch of reasons. And sometimes the best way to save lives of your people is to bomb other people. That’s very naive. Not all antagonists are rational state actors. Terrorist orgs like…

> And sometimes the best way to save lives of your people is to bomb other people. Hello, it's 2030 calling. Yeah, that recent nasty terror attack? Carried out by people born between 2005 and 2012. They grew up in the wartorn cities of Baghdad, Kabul, in the mountains of Afghanistan, in the little towns hit with little "pinpricks" of drone strikes for the past 20 years because the big brains in the USA thought that "…

> Those young kids who carried out that attack have known nothing but war, while you have known nothing but peace and have the gall to suggest that they and their neighbors should be subject to constant, round-the-clock, death-from-the-sky TERROR. They've known people who got hit by drones. They've known people who were collateral. They've seen the craters. Arms and legs blown off. Brains. Dead bodies. Charred remains. From machines in the sky, operated by people sitting in airconditioned offices half a world away. You don't think they know that? That drone operators sit in airconditioned offices and blow people up? War is fucking hell. And that's been their reality. And our reality has been playing video games. They fucking hate us. God damn, how could they not?

There's a great quote by Machiavelli that explains this: "There can be no proper relation between one who is armed and one who is not. Nor it is reasonable to expect that one who is armed will voluntarily obey one who is not."

> Welcome to the endless cycle of violence your myopia brings.

Myopia is thinking the world is nothing but sunshine and lollipops. There are people in this world who's entire existence is based on the destruction of everyone else with a different way of life. ISIS falls into that camp and anything short of utter destruction of them and anyone that gives aid or comfort to them will allow them to continue. A cancer like that needs to be fully excised to prevent it from returning.

> If you think the best way to defeat ISIS and Al Qaeda is by blowing up random people who seem important now is a good plan, then it's going to be a fail.

I never suggested that "blowing up random people" is a good idea. I was making that point that in the interests of saving lives of your own people, it can make sense to bomb (and presumably kill) other people. It's not that there won't be any loss of life. It's that doing so will save lives on your side.

> Al Qaeda and ISIS need to be defeated and expunged by and from CIVILIZATION--their networks dismantled and defunded by detective work, cooperation with local governments, the rule of law, and lots of arrests. They are going to be defeated when the local population is sick of their shit and doesn't believe what they believe. They are going to be defeated when being part of Al Qaeda is a poor alternative in life, because life offers you so much better alternatives, and their ain't shit to be that damn mad about.

Sure it's bombs alone that will solve the problem of Al Qaeda and ISIS. Nor did I suggest that they would. But putting pressure on the locals by splitting the world into "with us or with them" camps isn't that crazy either.

> There won't be Al Qaeda when people chill the fuck out, on all sides.

I can assure you that nobody in either Al Qaeda or ISIS will ever "chill the fuck out". Given the opportunity to maim, hurt, or kill anyone in Western society, or more generally anyone that's not they're specific sub-sect of Sunni Islam, then they will seize on it.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not being flippant. You commented that there might be legitimate reasons to bomb a wedding. Well, there are similar reasons to bomb hospitals etc, yet we don't accept that this should be done. If I misunderstood your original comment, please clarify.

you suggested bombing schools to "prevent future generations of insurgents". You're advocating genocide. You were being flippant but now you're acting innocent over it which belies a fabricated ignorance that is further insulting. Conflict and arms is a complex topic and simplifying it to "just don't kill people lol" is crass at best. Either engage with the arguments or go to a school about to be bombed in this perce…

You said there may be merit to bombing weddings. Why is it any different to bombing hospitals, nurseries, scholyards etc? Those are all civilian targets.

Edit: In the spirit of reconcilliation, I would like to explain that I didn't accuse you of anything, much less advocating genocide (I don't even think that bombing a school is genocide; infanticide, at scale, maybe- but, genocide? I don't see that).

I felt you are trying to do something extremely risky, to justify killing Y civilians by the number X of combatants that would also be killed. I don't think Y > 0 can ever be morally justified and I don't think that a targeted strike against any number of enemy combatants in a civilian area is, either, no matter the tactical outcome. Dropping bombs on the heads of people going about peacefull activities is just wrong, any way you cut it. Hence my comment- we don't accept the bombing of hospitals, regardless of their tactical value as targets, so why would we accept bombing weddings to kill some terrorists?

It's clear you find the idea of bombing hospitals or schools revolting, yet you're OK with bombing a wedding? I don't understand that.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#390

I don't see anything wrong for a company of a particular country helping their military. GE, Siemens, Mitsubishi and all tech giants of that era did that with pride during WWII. Then why can't Google, Facebook for USA? Perhaps the illusion of globalization is making us perceive Google, Facebook and other international giants as global companies. Although, geniuses from around the world have significant contributions…

Globalization does make Google a global company. Some of its employees have had friends and relatives in the path of US-operated drone strikes.
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