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Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

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Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#381

Post by jazzyk »

balfirevic wrote: post #376
jazzyk wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So importing cheap labor is ethical, opposing that practice - is not ethical?

I don't really understand what you're asking, but note that I did not even address what is "actually" ethical or not in my comment. I simply stated that it is not weird (and should actually be expected), that somebody opposes some practice they find unethical even if the practice would benefit them. Honestly, what's weird is that what I'm saying is even remotely controversial.

Your statement would have been non-controversial if it had not been made in the context of the parent statements.

But it was contextual.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#382

Post by BeetleB »

bane wrote: post #290

I think it's very important to parse Pao from the reprehensible behavior she describes in her workplace. Being polite, Pao does not come off well in her own personal story. But she was also swimming in a garbage pit. I have no doubt that what she writes about is true, and probably even holds back on much of the frat house nonsense. There can be entire semesters spent at school exploring other avenues that she might h…

>But for those of us who remember the case well while she was at Reddit, she also isn't only an innocent victim and had made some really bankrupt decisions all on her own.

What I remember of her tenure on Reddit is: She was continually accused by everyone for doing something she didn't do. And as a CEO, she gracefully did not pass the buck to the guilty parties, and assumed responsibility.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#383

Post by ZeroGravitas »

ptaipale wrote: post #328
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I said in my message that anticipated your reply, he calls for discrimination to reach higher representation of conservatives in the same memo. Presumably he wouldn't be doing so if he thought that was unfair or divisive, and he explicitly claims it would be good for business. The only factor that changes is "conservative" to "women" one of which he thinks is good for business and one of which he thinks is bad for…

I don't find that call for discrimination in the text. Are we reading the same document? When I read it, he mentions conservatives only in the section "Suggestions / Stop alienating conservatives" where he says: In highly progressive environments, conservatives are a minority that feel like they need to stay in the closet to avoid open hostility. We should empower those with different ideologies to be able to express…

I'm not sure why the defenders of this memo always devolve into word games.

"Stop alienating X" is a call for action, and if that call to action is heeded X will feel less alienated and there will be more of them. Because it's targetted at X it is "discrimination" by the dictionary definition of the term and by the general usage. This is true whether X is "women" or "conservatives". In this kind of context it is sometimes called "positive discrimination". The memo writer uses the term discrimination himself in this way when talking about hiring more women.

The relevant bit you didn't quote makes it clear that he sees business benefits from having more conservatives employed:

"Alienating conservatives is both non-inclusive and generally bad business because conservatives tend to be higher in conscientiousness, which is required for much of the drudgery and maintenance work characteristic of a mature company."

So, taking action to hire or retain more conservatives, good for business. Because they have skills Google needs more of. Taking action to hire or retain more women, bad for business.

He clearly has no problem with affirmative action in itself, as long as the target being helped isn't women (or racial minorities).

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#384

Post by Clubber »

enraged_camel wrote: post #351
adekok wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> sexism in tech is a thing, and that it shouldn't be. To play devils advocate, sexism is a thing everywhere . In some cases, there are good biological reasons why men and women are treated differently, e.g. child care (mostly women) versus hard physical labor (mostly men) Where those biological differences aren't effective (e.g. typing on a keyboard), then yes, men and women should be treated the same. But even with…

>>But even with that, there may be biological reasons why men and women are interested in different things. Which may mean more women in job A, or more men in job B. You say biological reasons, I say social programming. The whole nature vs. nurture debate has been going on for ages. Basically, we have no way of knowing what portion of women's tendencies to gravitate towards certain jobs and careers can be attributed…

I'm not sure why this was down voted. I would say other than lifting heavy things and childbirth, every other difference would be social programming, or just societal norms. I mean read about female Russian snipers in WWII. Read about Confederate women during the Civil War running their farms by themselves while their husbands were off to war. Hell the whole pink for girls and blue for boys is a recent social phenomenon of the latter 20th century. FDR had his baby pictures wearing a dress. The person who programmed the Apollo guidance system (it was 100% guided) was a woman.

My point is women aren't into programming because lack of biological ability.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#385

Post by cableshaft »

camus2 wrote: post #217
Joeri wrote: post #106

It's easy to get hung up on the particulars of Pao's story and get sidetracked into defending or judging her, but I feel that is besides the point. I am more interested in the wider notion of why she wrote this article: to point out that sexism in tech is a thing, and that it shouldn't be. I'm wondering though: is this just about sexism, or is it about professionalism and maturity? Getting hit on by someone higher up…

> In tech people get away with wildly unprofessional behavior as long as "they get stuff done", and personally I never felt that was acceptable. Which is completely false and not based on any facts. Businesses have different policies. You can't reduce all IT in world to a few businesses in the Silicon Valley. That's preposterous. And I doubt IT has anymore "unprofessional behavior" than any other industries. There is…

> And I doubt IT has anymore "unprofessional behavior" than any other industries.

My girlfriend works for a major company in corporate real estate. The stories she tells put most stuff I've seen leveled at IT to shame. Managers that scream at employees in front of everyone else and bring them to tears, constant bickering, backstabbing, and general refusal to do their own job or help you do your job in any possible way, even though you're on the same team, people getting thrown under the bus constantly, people getting panic attacks and taking leaves from the company because they've been verbally abused so much, you have to have a high level of assertiveness and a fighting attitude to get anything accomplished. She's gone from men in charge of her to women, and she thinks it actually got worse with women in charge, because they pretend to be friendly but are secretly doing everything they can to undermine you.

How these people stay employed and these companies stay in business I have no idea. I know the turnover is really, really high at her company, and they've lost a lot of bids recently.

It's not true of everyone or every company in corporate real estate, but the nature of it seems to foster and encourages that type of behavior. Big money, high stakes, if you win the company millions of dollars in business they let you be a total asshole. Well, at least if you're high enough on the totem pole.

She's been trying to get out of it for years, but she can't find anything else that pays as well for her skillset.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#386

Post by BeetleB »

ramblerman wrote: post #44
probably_wrong wrote: post #27

Interesting read. I wonder if the "paid army of trolls" she mentions followed her to Reddit. That would definitely explain the campaign against her.

> "paid army of trolls" would definitely explain the campaign against her. She banned a number of subreddits, including /r/fatpeoplehate and revengeporn. A move that strikes pretty deep at what people consider to be an open platform where votes define everything. Subsequently she fired Victoria Taylor, an incredibly popular moderator at /r/ama. This combined with the perceived idea that threads discussing these issue…

>Subsequently she fired Victoria Taylor, an incredibly popular moderator at /r/ama.

She did no such thing. You fell for the rumors.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#387

Post by crazypyro »

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #198

Sexism in Silicon Valley or sexism among the corporate elites? I doubt the average tech worker, who doesn't travel in private jets, casually talks about porn actresses and sex workers at their job. However, I have often heard and read such anecdotes about elite executives, also in non-tech sectors. I'd say that kind of attitude is more related to the impunity that comes with power than with tech or non-tech.

Power makes people comfortable and comfortable people don't always act in a way befitting of their position/environment. I don't think this is anything new... there are always people in power abusing their position.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#388

Post by abhi3 »

strken wrote: post #183

Articles like this really make me aware that men and women like Ellen Pao and her former partners live in a separate parallel world: three degrees, $10 million golden parachutes, private jet flights to ski resorts, affairs with a creepy married co-worker in Germany, machismo-driven muscling for VC connections, bisexual finance wizards who kickstart an Ivy-League LGBT program, dominance games over which chair an exec…

> affairs with a creepy married co-worker in Germany, machismo-driven muscling for VC connections, dominance games over which chair an exec sits in, PR firms hired to smear uppity former partners... it's like a movie.

I wonder how prevalent such behavior is amongst the truly exceptional people vs the imposters who just happened to be successful due to luck and in many cases sheer force of personality (seems to still work in old school industries). Part of me would like to think that the Zucks, Bezos and Gates of the world don't partake in such shenanigans and would rather just keep their head down and work conscientiously.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#389

Post by debacle »

jmkni wrote: post #66
ramblerman wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "paid army of trolls" would definitely explain the campaign against her. She banned a number of subreddits, including /r/fatpeoplehate and revengeporn. A move that strikes pretty deep at what people consider to be an open platform where votes define everything. Subsequently she fired Victoria Taylor, an incredibly popular moderator at /r/ama. This combined with the perceived idea that threads discussing these issue…

The way she was treated, though, was disgusting. I have zero doubt that her gender/ethnicity was a major motivating factor for the majority of people involved in this backlash and that a white male in the same position would have pretty much gotten a pass from the same people. /r/fatpeoplehate and /r/revengeporn where two incredibly toxic subreddits, and I was personally happy to see them go.

spez has gotten much of the same treatment from those same users on 4chan, voat, and the remaining right aligned subreddits. I would argue that worse has been said of/to spez.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#390

Post by wvenable »

lagadu wrote: post #250
jmkni wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way she was treated, though, was disgusting. I have zero doubt that her gender/ethnicity was a major motivating factor for the majority of people involved in this backlash and that a white male in the same position would have pretty much gotten a pass from the same people. /r/fatpeoplehate and /r/revengeporn where two incredibly toxic subreddits, and I was personally happy to see them go.

I disagree, particularly in regards to r/fatpeoplehate (I didn't know r/revengeporn existed but I know revenge porn is illegal in my country at least). Fatpeoplehate was one of the strictest subs when it came to enforcing the rediquette rules of "not touching the poo": members were very quickly banned if they got caught using the content in the sub to harass anyone outside it. Once that boundary is set it all becomes…

I would argue that r/fatpeoplehate was effectively two subreddits. It "happily" chugged along for a long time as just another subreddit but at some point it reached the tipping point and became uncontrollable.
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