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About This Googler's Manifesto

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Re: About This Googler's Manifesto

#381
post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ability to handle stress gender difference https://www.google.com/search?q=ability+to+handle+stress+gen... First result: http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/stress/2010/gender-st... First paragraph: > Men and women* report different reactions to stress, both physically and mentally. They attempt to manage stress in very different ways and also perceive their ability to do so — and the things that stand in their…

I'm not sure what you're rebutting. The APA page doesn't support any claim that men or women are better at handling stress. It just says they handle it differently. > Disclaimer: I have no idea how this facet affects one's capacity of performing in a tech role. Yeah. On the other hand, the manifesto author suggests that "stress tolerance" is gender based, and may affect your capacity to succeed in tech: "differences…

> It seems clear to me that the manifesto author "raises into question the fundamental capability of every woman he works with".

Could you quote the part of the manifesto that says so / gave this impression.

I totally understand the offensiveness and stupidity of such a belief -I just fail to see how the author argues for it given that he explicitly states the opposite

> Many of these differences are small and there’s significant overlap between men and women, so you can’t say anything about an individual given these population level distributions.

As far as I can see the author is arguing average aptitudes in populations and consequent percentual representation of men and women not being 50/50. Not aptititudes of individuals. As the author also argues for actions that in their eyes increases the attractiveness of tech jobs to women they seem to think of the women that work with them as perfectly capable.

I appreciate any help in understanding this point of view. It just feels like we read different manifestos

Re: About This Googler's Manifesto

#382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Textbook thoughtcrime punishment. People are fired for exhibiting corrosive, counterproductive, or otherwise bad attitudes every day. Are they all victims of "textbook thoughtcrime punishment?"

People are fired for exhibiting corrosive, counterproductive, or otherwise bad attitudes every day. Are they all victims of "textbook thoughtcrime punishment?" The Google manifesto does not represent a "corrosive, counterproductive, or otherwise bad attitude." That so many people are insane or lazy enough to think it does is precisely the author's point.

The question in my mind is: Does an opinion suddenly become a "thought crime" if expressing it publicly might get you fired from a non-governmental employer? The consequences don't include incarceration or even necessarily the end of a career. This is, in principle, "crime?" Really?

You've jumped straight into name calling without engaging that question.

Couldn't we characterize the manifesto scandal as, in part, an apalling lack of judgement? Should your response lend me (or anyone) any confidence in your judgement? Yet here you are, charging right in with a judgement call.

Consider the possibility that you have read the manifesto but you haven't understood the context. That other people, who claim to see something else there, really are seeing it, they're not making it up. Consider the possibility that some of them have had experiences you have not. That some of them are just smarter than you. That people who disagree with you aren't insane or lazy.

Re: About This Googler's Manifesto

#383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if you're being defensive or cynical here. It's true that people have always lost their jobs and careers (sometimes lives!) for voicing unpopular opinions. What's interesting is how people's moral judgment of that correlates with their sympathy for the particularly unpopular opinion in question. Lots of people lost their jobs and careers for voicing opinions that were sympathetic to Communism, and we cal…

I don't know that much about McCarthyism but I think it's safe to guess that you know less. It was considered a witch hunt because nobody cared about facts or evidence, the spectacle was the point. Victims we're persecuted because they were juicy, suceptible targets, not because of anything they did or didn't do. The situation we're discussing here is pretty different.

> It was considered a witch hunt because nobody cared about facts or evidence, the spectacle was the point. Victims we're persecuted because they were juicy, suceptible targets, not because of anything they did or didn't do.

You're right--you don't know a lot about McCarthyism. The "Hollywood Ten" screenwriters who were blacklisted by the film industry (private employers making employment decisions!) were, in fact, members of the Communist Party USA, an organization that was directly controlled and financed by an adversarial world power. There was substance behind the spectacle.

As for people being accused of things without evidence--well, witness the people in this thread who keep repeating the lie that the author of the manifesto considers his women coworkers less capable than he is, the outright fantasizing in OP about the author getting punched in the face, etc. Looks pretty spectacular to me.

Re: About This Googler's Manifesto

#384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are fired for exhibiting corrosive, counterproductive, or otherwise bad attitudes every day. Are they all victims of "textbook thoughtcrime punishment?" The Google manifesto does not represent a "corrosive, counterproductive, or otherwise bad attitude." That so many people are insane or lazy enough to think it does is precisely the author's point.

The question in my mind is: Does an opinion suddenly become a "thought crime" if expressing it publicly might get you fired from a non-governmental employer? The consequences don't include incarceration or even necessarily the end of a career. This is, in principle, "crime?" Really? You've jumped straight into name calling without engaging that question. Couldn't we characterize the manifesto scandal as, in part, an…

The question in my mind is: Does an opinion suddenly become a "thought crime" if expressing it publicly might get you fired from a non-governmental employer?

Coercive behavior of any sort is rarely an appropriate response to a sincere and well-articulated argument. It is incumbent on the coercive actor to justify their actions. Usually, the justifications are not controversial. When they are, often that means there's a problem somewhere and that discussion really is necessary.

In this case, the author clearly explains why he believes this topic is important to discuss.

Couldn't we characterize the manifesto scandal as, in part, an apalling lack of judgement?

No. Not unless you accept that it is justified to punish someone for posting a polite, articulate, well-informed argument made out of a genuine attempt to be both truthful and helpful to the mission of the organization. (note: well-informed does not mean comprehensive or right about everything. It just means good enough to start a dialog.)

Should your response lend me (or anyone) any confidence in your judgement? Yet here you are, charging right in with a judgement call.

Explain to me how the memo is corrosive. What is being corroded?

Explain to me how the memo is counterproductive. What is the desired production? How does the memo run counter to that production?

Explain to me how the memo represents a bad attitude. What is "bad" and "good?"

I say the memo is polite because it shows a substantial degree of sensitivity to the opposing arguments and ideology. The ideas are presented in a detached, academic manner with a clear effort to avoid sensational rhetoric or ranting.

I say the memo is sincere for several reasons. I am unable to detect any attempt to misrepresent or mischaracterize his opposition. He clearly demonstrates acceptance of personal responsibility for the opinions presented. Finally, he appeals to open discussion in a way that welcomes disagreement and sincere disputation of any points he makes. The one presumption of sincerity that I might have questioned-- that Google really is an ideological echo-chamber-- was overwhelmingly confirmed by the hostility of the response.

I say the memo is clear and thoughtful because the author uses plainly stated premises and syllogisms. He is straightforward with his points and transparent with his logic. While specific citations for supporting evidence could have been more rigorous, it's clear that the author is not just pulling these positions out of nowhere. Any reasonable attempt to continue discussion could challenge him to go into more detail about the supporting evidence.

That some of them are just smarter than you.

It has little to do with intelligence. It has mostly to do with not having the first clue how to tell the difference between a legitimate attempt at dialog and ideologically-motivated rhetoric. Intelligence is only a factor insofar as a baseline of intelligence is needed to comprehend the argument. I'm not an expert but I suspect most of the people hysterical about the manifesto are smart enough to understand it, if they knew how to read it properly.

Re: About This Googler's Manifesto

#385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's literally no insult in my comment. But, I appreciate your desire to reduce polarization by legitimizing bigotry! Keep on keepin' on.

Um, no, just trying to encourage civility. (Calling others' words BS sounds insulting to me at least.)

You sound like a little bitch

Re: About This Googler's Manifesto

#386
I am a female engineer and I partially agreed with the original manifesto. To be pragmatic, I rather work with a qualified SWE than someone hired by lowering the hiring bar due to political correctness. I am also fed up with the empty assumption that diversity will bring positive productivity. What is the problem with meritocracy? I think any competitive SWE (regardless of the gender) will not be intimidated by such manifesto.

Re: About This Googler's Manifesto

#387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what you're rebutting. The APA page doesn't support any claim that men or women are better at handling stress. It just says they handle it differently. > Disclaimer: I have no idea how this facet affects one's capacity of performing in a tech role. Yeah. On the other hand, the manifesto author suggests that "stress tolerance" is gender based, and may affect your capacity to succeed in tech: "differences…

> It seems clear to me that the manifesto author "raises into question the fundamental capability of every woman he works with". Could you quote the part of the manifesto that says so / gave this impression. I totally understand the offensiveness and stupidity of such a belief -I just fail to see how the author argues for it given that he explicitly states the opposite > Many of these differences are small and there’…

>> It seems clear to me that the manifesto author "raises into question the fundamental capability of every woman he works with".

> Could you quote the part of the manifesto that says so / gave this impression.

I did. The parts in quotes above are directly from the manifesto. He lists differences between sexes and claims one gender has "lower stress tolerance". That's a gross generalization that doesn't account for a lot of perception factors which I outlined in an above comment. He also prefaces that section by saying "these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech".

> As far as I can see the author is arguing average aptitudes in populations and consequent percentual representation of men and women not being 50/50. Not aptititudes of individuals

The author makes the claim that one sex's ineptitude in a modern role is, on average, rooted in biology. That's not supported by science.

Re: About This Googler's Manifesto

#388

I'm deeply troubled by the response to this "manifesto". Pitchforks are out for this guy, and when they find him, it won't be pretty. I think that's wrong. He has expressed his opinion, and people are free to confront, and denounce him all they want. But this guy might lose his job. His career. All for voicing his opinion. I don't think it matters that he did this internally. Had he stood up at a discussion in Palo A…

People keep claiming this, but I know not one single sexist developer who can't find a job. Not even the ones who actually, literally committed sexual assault: they are all still employed.

It is only possible to justify identifying with this asshoel by completely ignoring the harm his "speech" does to his company's culture while vastly over-inflating the consequences he is likely to face. If he had said, "programmers should sit down, shut up, stop whining and write what they are told" no one here would have a lick of sympathy for him getting canned.

Re: About This Googler's Manifesto

#389

I posted this in another thread where the entire thread got flagged. This response on medium is scary and demonstrates what I’m concerned about. At this point the left has gotten to a point where witch hunts, blacklisting, exclusion, and suggesting that people could acceptably be subject to violence, for thought crime are accepted and encouraged tactics. I’m a closeted conservative in tech, hence the throwaway accoun…

Why on earth do you think people should be expected to tolerate a "diversity of views" on whether they are inherently less qualified than white men?

Re: About This Googler's Manifesto

#390
post #180

"It’s true that women are socialized to be better at paying attention to people’s emotional needs and so on — this is something that makes them better engineers, not worse ones." Looks like the author of this blog post agrees with the author of the manifesto on his main point.

"Socialized" is the key word here: these skills are taught, and thus are learnable. There is no excuse for men not learning these skills once they discover they lack them.
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