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How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

nytimes.com

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Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#381

Post by pokemon-trainer »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #306
matt4077 wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get the analogy... Cloudflare is trying to protect websites from hacking attempts and similar, most of which is illegal. Their treatment of Tor also wasn't a deliberate decision but the result of empirical data they collected. A government official (or anyone, actually) trying to check for compliance with the law isn't doing anything illegal. Uber may be within their rights because companies usually have wide…

> Cloudflare is trying to protect websites from hacking attempts and similar, most of which is illegal I don't think we can say "most" Tor traffic "is illegal" [1]. At the very least, we agree that some of it is legal. That means Cloudflare, a private company, is treating users differently based on its interests and its interpretation of the law. > A government official (or anyone, actually) trying to check for compl…

You are in Libertarian La-La Land to call what Uber did "treating users differently based on its interests and its interpretation of the law".

As Volkswagen discovered, in the United States this is called "criminal conspiracy" and "obstruction of justice."

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#382

Post by yummyfajitas »

wavefunction wrote: post #365
avn2109 wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seem to be the minority here, but I don't see how any entity (including Uber) has an obligation to make it easy for the law to ticket them. Anyone who uses e.g. the Waze app to evade speedtraps is similarly guilty of "systematically avoiding the law." Lastly, let me just disclaim that I think Uber is run by assholes and so is the police.

Exactly, if -for example- a police officer tries to pull me over for a traffic infraction, my speeding off and attempts to make it more difficult to ticket me is only a natural and decent personal impulse!

You have a legal obligation not to flee an officer. However, even if you sell drugs or sex, you have no obligation to approach a known police officer and offer to sell them drugs/sex.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#383

Post by zhengyi13 »

tyingq wrote: post #274
SilasX wrote: post #111

It took me about 8 paragraphs in to figure out what Greyball is, so to save you the time: Uber used various data sources to identify which people are likely government officials who are trying to collect incriminating data on them, and then blocks them from the service so they can't be caught in sting operations. But there's a lot in the article that doesn't make sense: >Other techniques included looking at the user’…

"blocks them from the service" doesn't quite capture it right. It doesn't tell them they are blocked. It displays fake cars circling that never show up.

I'm reminded of the Reddit shadow ban, myself.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#384

Post by Balgair »

Hmm, so it seems we have a relatively small corporation duking it out with many sovereign governments and standing a good chance of winning the fight. Governments have ultimate authority in their territorial regions (Westphalian Peace), but that idea may no longer be valid these days. My small survey of the zeitgeist says that it is likely to continue this way. So then, what is the next step. We have some sort of corporate-governmental feudalism right now, where either of them 'farms' the people and you elect to be a serf of Google or FB or Uber or many at once, just as you were a Huguenot and a Frenchman and a Gascon all at once. What is the next step here?

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#385

Post by [deleted] »

wavefunction wrote: post #365
avn2109 wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seem to be the minority here, but I don't see how any entity (including Uber) has an obligation to make it easy for the law to ticket them. Anyone who uses e.g. the Waze app to evade speedtraps is similarly guilty of "systematically avoiding the law." Lastly, let me just disclaim that I think Uber is run by assholes and so is the police.

Exactly, if -for example- a police officer tries to pull me over for a traffic infraction, my speeding off and attempts to make it more difficult to ticket me is only a natural and decent personal impulse!

[deleted]

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#386

Post by ycmbntrthrwaway »

EnFinlay wrote: post #105

Where I'm from a taxi driver gets a fine if they refuse service to someone. Seems that Uber has that built in. Seems like it could easily abused for discrimination.

> Where I'm from a taxi driver gets a fine if they refuse service to someone.

Discrimination problem is solved by competition, not regulation. You can't regulate against discrimination.

See how it works with jobs. When employer doesn't want to employ someone for whatever reason, he will simply state that candidate didn't pass the interview or whatever, and you can't prove it otherwise.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#387

Post by rebuilder »

dragonwriter wrote: post #363
frogpelt wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. The article seems to point to Greyball as proof that Uber is being shady. Greyball is just the tool they used to keep from getting caught. The shady part is that they operate in cities were they aren't welcome (by city officials at least, customers and drivers seemed to welcome them with open arms). If Uber operating in Portland is a night burglar, Greyball is his dark clothes and mask.

> Greyball is just the tool they used to keep from getting caught Using a tool to avoid getting caught is, itself, evidence that one is aware of the impropriety of the action thereby protected. Many view this kind of awareness as increasing the shadiness of the underlying action.

Isn't this a "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" argument?

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#388

Post by joantune »

The question is, did they really have to engage in these tactics to "win"? This just makes Uber sound another notch less moral and legal to everyone further making it look like the evil corp. It's like their motto is the opposite of Google's 'Do no Evil'.

And I guess the other question here is: does this matter for people (i.e. consumers)? I would argue that given two equivalent choices, one would vote for the one with better reputation, so yes, it matters

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#389

Post by kybernetyk »

>Uber had tagged Mr. England and his colleagues — essentially Greyballing them as city officials — based on data collected from the app and in other ways. The company then served up a fake version of the app populated with ghost cars, to evade capture.

Wow, that's genius.

Uber has my full support when it's them vs. outdated entrenched state regulations.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#390

Post by dragonwriter »

robocat wrote: post #211
LyndsySimon wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, the US government requires income tax to be paid on foreign earnings, even while living and working overseas. To avoid that, you'd have to also renounce citizenships, which is expensive and at the government's discretion.

> [the US] requires income tax to be paid on foreign earnings Which is a common reason to wish to renounce US citizenship. But there is a trap which prevents renunciation because you don't like to be unfairly taxed: "If the Department of Homeland Security determines that the renunciation is motivated by tax avoidance purposes, the individual will be found inadmissible to the United States under Section 212(a)(10)(E)…

That doesn't prevent renunciation to avoid taxes, it just prevents you from coming back.and enjoying the benefits Americans taxes pay for after you decide you don't want to be an American because that means paying taxes.

Which seems perfectly fair to me.

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