This insane, yet somehow I'm not surprised. Could this culminate in a real change at Uber - no more Travis, maybe?
How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide
301–310 of 805 posts
Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide
#302So I ask this mostly out of horrified curiosity -- is there any negative press or revelation that could actually sink Uber at this point? What would it take for the company to fail? We've seen: * Systematic flouting of laws in public * Even further hidden avoiding of laws * Sexism complaints across the board * What appears to be a pervasive toxic culture, inspired (if not explicitly encouraged) straight from the CEO'…
They're trying to become too big to fail, but aren't quite there yet. Essentially they're undercutting all competitors by artificially keeping fares very low and subsidizing drivers. Subsidies were the primary source of their enormous financial losses in 2016. Once the competition is completely gone (local cabs, and Lyft in some areas), then they can stop subsidizing themselves and basically hold a monopoly. It's the…
Exactly -- and I guess my question is whether there is any reason to believe they won't succeed :(
Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide
#303Earlier quoted context omitted.
My perspective is the opposite. In a world where large multinationals have the power to evade the law in a deliberate and systematic way like this, it's easy for governments to claim they need the same kind of power. Things like this are exactly what bureaucrats point to when they make their arguments for a surveillance state. I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinatio…
The difference between the government and the corporation is the government can confiscate your property, take your liberty, and end your life. A corporation can do none of those things. A bad government is far, far, far more dangerous than a bad corporation.
>A corporation can do none of those things.
Yes they can, they just need to hide that they're doing it or keep the government on their side.
Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide
#304Of all the things Uber is accused of this week, I'm pretty sure this one is the least concerning. It seems to involve the ethical dilemma of a radar detector.
Speed limits are about public safety, too, but speed traps are usually about money. Ride-sharing regulations might be about safety, but Uber 'stings' seem to be about hurting drivers (not Uber) and preserving the value of taxi medallions.
If the police want information, subpoena Uber; don't play spy vs spy with folks trying to eke out a few bucks.
Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide
#305Earlier quoted context omitted.
My perspective is the opposite. In a world where large multinationals have the power to evade the law in a deliberate and systematic way like this, it's easy for governments to claim they need the same kind of power. Things like this are exactly what bureaucrats point to when they make their arguments for a surveillance state. I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinatio…
As horrible as Uber is, it hasn't done any extrajudicial drone strikes on civilians, yet.
Plenty of corporations have done similar or eqivalent actions.
Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide
#306Earlier quoted context omitted.
> This has got to be illegal It doesn't seem that different from Cloudflare et al throwing up CAPTCHAs and blocks when I browse through Tor. Uber was trying to prevent abuse. Until someone identifies themselves as a city official or Uber is put on notice that it is under investigation, I think they are well within their rights to do this.
I don't get the analogy... Cloudflare is trying to protect websites from hacking attempts and similar, most of which is illegal. Their treatment of Tor also wasn't a deliberate decision but the result of empirical data they collected. A government official (or anyone, actually) trying to check for compliance with the law isn't doing anything illegal. Uber may be within their rights because companies usually have wide…
> Cloudflare is trying to protect websites from hacking attempts and similar, most of which is illegal
I don't think we can say "most" Tor traffic "is illegal" [1]. At the very least, we agree that some of it is legal. That means Cloudflare, a private company, is treating users differently based on its interests and its interpretation of the law.
> A government official (or anyone, actually) trying to check for compliance with the law isn't doing anything illegal
They probably aren't. Neither is Uber. They're just treating their users differently based on their interests and interpretation of the law.
Law enforcement has tough-as-nails methods at its disposal. It could subpoena, audit, intercept, sue, et cetera. The downside is those methods come with oversight and transparency requirements.
Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide
#307I am trying to come up with an analogy to comprehend this. Imagine a city government has a rule against palm oil and no restaurants are supposed to use palm oil. A restaurant think that rule is nuts and decides to protest it publicly by using it. At the same time, they rip off the label from the palm oil. The city was having trouble finding the palm oil in the restaurant. You can claim that the restaurant has broken…
In my town, they were picking up drivers, then immediately fining them $1200 for being a taxi, without the taxi insurance and a special license/permit. I could see uber wanting to avoid that.
Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide
#308Uber's disregard for local laws and regulations is well known, so I find it hard to be shocked by this. But the chutzpah to implement something so blatantly designed to aide in breaking the law is still surprising. It reminds me of Zenefits in a way. It also seems similar to VW's Diesel engine "Defeat Device". The future of technology will probably include ever more shady uses of programming to mislead regulators and…
> It also seems similar to VW's Diesel engine "Defeat Device". The future of technology will probably include ever more shady uses of programming to mislead regulators and the like.
As a FOSS enthusiast, I hope this becomes a good push to require those types of software to become FOSS.
Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide
#309Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree. It's genius in a Lex Luthor kind of way. If I understood the full scope of the application, I like to think i'd decline to work on that. It's easy to imagine engineers working on small parts of the system, and never really connecting the dots that the whole point is to evade law enforcement. There's a big difference between keeping secrets for market advantage and to evade the law. In the first case, I want…
I would imagine there are people who don't view it as a breach of ethics. And those types are probably more inclined to be working at Uber on the first place. I mean if you really believe the various transportations administrations are corrupt and that the way to solve it is to temporarily disregard the law, then Uber is probably the place to be
I seem to be the minority here, but I don't see how any entity (including Uber) has an obligation to make it easy for the law to ticket them.
Anyone who uses e.g. the Waze app to evade speedtraps is similarly guilty of "systematically avoiding the law."
Lastly, let me just disclaim that I think Uber is run by assholes and so is the police.
Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide
#310Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinational. When it comes down to it, we don't have more than our choice of devils. If I don't like Uber, I can... stop using Uber. What can I do if I don't like the service a state provides - can I opt out and stop paying? No, my only option is to flee - which the state will often try and prevent you doing anyway. The state is a huge…
Sorry, services like Uber have externalities and do not only impact their consumers. Your only option to avoid this involuntary charge s to flee Bollocks. People organize for and achieve their political goals by modifying government on a regular basis. Governmental institutions suffer from numerous flaws, but your argument is that government is fundamentally totalitarian which is nonsense.
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