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Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

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Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#371

Post by righthand »

scheeseman486 wrote: post #222
righthand wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay. It still took them 17 years to agree on it. And regardless of moving forward on it they’ve demonstrated no concern with timely delivery.

"OK I was wrong, so I'm going to make another assumption because maybe this time whatever garbage I write might be right"

I wasnt wrong. It took them 17 years to come to an agreement. Just because they “just decided” this year or last year or whatever doesn’t make me wrong. And my point about them not caring about timely decisions was in my original comment so I didn’t write some garbage hopping from one idea to another.

Seek help over your anger issues.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#372

Post by kennethrc »

deno wrote: post #286
kennethrc wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even something as simple as alt-tabbing lagged for seconds on an overpowered machine. This may not be KDE's fault; I tracked these kinds of issues down to some bad tunable defaults. I came up with this: ---- cat /etc/sysctl.d/50-usb-responsiveness.conf # # Attempt to keep large USB transfers from locking the system (kswapd0) # vm.swappiness = 1 vm.dirty_background_ratio = 5 vm.dirty_ratio = 5 vm.extfrag_threshold =…

You really only need dirty_ratio/bytes and dirty_background_ratio/bytes set to something lower than default. It also makes your progress bars show values closer to reality, especially when copying from fast to slow media. Some distros already do set lower defaults, e.g. pop os: https://github.com/pop-os/default-settings/blob/master_noble... Bazzite: https://github.com/ublue-os/bazzite/blob/main/system_files/d...

> You really only need dirty_ratio/bytes and dirty_background_ratio/bytes set to something lower than default.

The vm.swappiness=1 was very necessary for me as well, and made as much difference as the dirties you'd mentioned.

I usually run Linus' master kernels (as I look for regressions in certain subsystems) and I know there's been some recent changes to the MM subsystem so this may explain some of the necessity for me.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#373

Post by schemar »

c0balt wrote: post #117
palata wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotally, my experience with Wayland has been a lot better than with X11. I have been on Wayland for years, I can't remember the last time I had an issue (running Sway).

Same here, there are some pain points with swaywm (notably screen sharing is only per display, DisplayLink support and screen mirroring is a pain). Most of these points however are IME a worthwhile tradeoff. Sway has also been astoundingly stable (compared to gnome or KDE)

With the next release of sway (1.12) you should be able to share individual windows.

https://github.com/emersion/xdg-desktop-portal-wlr/issues/10...

https://github.com/swaywm/sway/issues/8170#issuecomment-3962...

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#374

Post by kps »

tmtvl wrote: post #354
palata wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a "Desktop mode" that I, at least, use more than the handheld mode. Not sure if it's running Wayland though.

Desktop mode on the Steam Deck uses X11. I think that's why the brightness control is fucked up (ever notice how the brightness is always 40% when you switch to desktop mode?). You can manually switch it to Wayland, but Steam input is broken under Wayland (or at least it was last time I checked, which is admittedly half a year ago or something).

> input is broken under Wayland

Drop the ‘Steam’, it's cleaner. Wayland's raison d'etre is to push frame buffers without tearing. Input is an afterthought.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#375

Post by elsjaako »

darthoctopus wrote: post #255
palata wrote: post #17

Disclaimer: I don't have any skin in this game, I was fine with X11 and I am fine with Wayland, and I actually think it's nice to have both (and more, like Xlibre I think?). I understand complaints about systemd, I don't understand the complaints about Wayland. This whole article sounds like a big rant and doesn't seem to bring much information. > I also don't care for the "security" argument when parts of the core r…

> Who is forced to use it? Just use X11, as you said (many times) you do already. I can no longer use GNOME on X11, and the decision to remove support was a deliberate one. Users are definitely being forced.

You can use an old version of Gnome and accept older software, or you can organize some fellow GNOME enthusiasts to maintain it, possibly with paid developers.

You can't legally get old versions of Windows or Photoshop, and you can't legally fix them if you find problems. GNOME gives you that freedom.

This isn't just a theoretical possibility: both MATE and Cinnamon are GNOME forks.

You can argue that maintaining and developing a desktop environment is an huge project and you can't expect someone to take that on - I completely agree, which is why I think we should be thankful of the developers instead of complaining about being "forced" to use new versions of their software.

Having technical discussions about the merits is fine, but in the end in the free/open source software model the people that make the technical decisions are the ones that make the technology possible. And if so many of those people are moving to Wayland, maybe there is a reason for that.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#376

Post by stemlord »

WhoCaresAboutIt wrote: post #330
martinald wrote: post #7

FWIW I recently switched full time to Linux and have had absolutely 0 problems with GNOME, Wayland and Fedora, though I am using an AMD GPU. wl-copy works fine, askpass works, copy and paste works, screen sharing with Google Meet works, drag and drop works. Using an iphone as a webcam works as does recording my screen. Most importantly using multiple monitors with fractional scaling works perfectly. AFIAK this is not…

It's pretty funny to see "copy/paste works" and "drag and drop works" presented like some kind of win. That's the absolute baseline for a desktop OS.. since at least Windows 3.x. Windows, bloated and ad-riddled as it is now, never had to be defended on the basis that basic GUI behavior still functioned. But this year surely will be the year of the Linux desktop!

I have constant issues with drag and drop on my windows pc. It'll stop working and I have to reboot to get it back

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#377

Post by snvzz »

Crespyl wrote: post #245
rasz wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PulseAudio dragged linux to replacing that stinkin pile of garbage with PipeWire.

The argument that can be made is that we never would've gotten PipeWire without going through PulseAudio first.

We got the much superior jack two years before pulseaudio was even a thing.

Pulseaudio was a derail of Linux audio. We could have skipped it entirely.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#378

Post by pjmlp »

naikrovek wrote: post #365
pjmlp wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything is a file doesn't play well with how GPUs work, especially modern ones. Plan 9 and later Inferno, just had plain 2D rendering.

the interface doesn't have to remain a file if that's not suitable. rendering to a texture (an image) then displaying the image is what window compositors do, and what some games do. plan9 has a file you can write to which just dumps the image to the window/screen. there is no reason this could not work for Plan9. And if you don't want to open a file, write to it, then close it every frame, don't. implement a faster…

The first thing window compositors that care about performace do, is use shared memory, then there are a couple of other tricks that don't fit into everything is a file with a stream of bytes.

Try to imagine how a Vulkan driver could be done on top of a plain file system interface.

Not one that kind of works, one that can match the performance of existing implementations.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#379

Post by Kiboneu »

BowBun wrote: post #46
palata wrote: post #17

Disclaimer: I don't have any skin in this game, I was fine with X11 and I am fine with Wayland, and I actually think it's nice to have both (and more, like Xlibre I think?). I understand complaints about systemd, I don't understand the complaints about Wayland. This whole article sounds like a big rant and doesn't seem to bring much information. > I also don't care for the "security" argument when parts of the core r…

> Who is forced to use it? Just use X11, as you said (many times) you do already. This is my understanding of his actual concern - Linux corps are pushing Wayland as a replacement for X11 when it is full of issues. Anecdotally my experience was the same. I'm a dev so I'm fine in a terminal, but trying to switch to KDE actually sent me BACK to Windows. Basic windowing stuff just does not work, and like the OP says, to…

> Even something as simple as alt-tabbing lagged for seconds on an overpowered machine.

In what way? If there’s a delay for the task switching menu to close after alt-tabbing (~500ms) this might be due to a kde animation default (it really tripped me up, I’m a rapid window switcher). I can share the fix once I get on my kde machine.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#380

Post by ndiddy »

bigyabai wrote: post #129
jauntywundrkind wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who uses my steam deck as a workstation too, I really really wish this were fully true. The desktop is still X based, and that suuuccckkksss .

The desktop sure, but the primary handheld mode uses Gamescope which is a Wayland-based session.

It's true that Gamescope is a Wayland compositor, but it does not support Wayland clients ("native Wayland programs" if you're unfamiliar with *nix terminology). In handheld mode, everything you see on your screen is an X11 client running under Xwayland. I have no interest in arguing over whether X11 or Wayland is better (I've used both and both work fine for me) but I would not use the Steam Deck to argue that Wayland is being stress tested by hundreds of thousands of gamers when none of their games are using Wayland.
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