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AI was supposed to help juniors shine. Why does it mostly make seniors stronger?

elma.dev

371–380 of 481 posts

Re: AI was supposed to help juniors shine. Why does it mostly make seniors stronger?

#371
post #60

The best code I've written with an LLM has been where I architect it, I guide the LLM through the scaffolding and initial proofs of different components, and then I guide it through adding features. Along the way it makes mistakes and I guide it through fixing them. Then when it is slow, I profile and guide it through optimizations. So in the end, it's code that I know very, very well. I could have written it but it…

Aaaha for me it was exactly the other way around!

I had a very complex piece of logic, with many many many moving parts. So I implemented many paths of that logic by hand, every one with their own specifics. Every path took something like 200-400 lines of code.

When this was done and correct. It was difficult to see the moving parts through the forest. Some code was similar but still a bit different, and hard to think about and spread in many places.

I put everything into an Llm and asked about isolation, architecture and refactoring.

And it actually gave me pretty good abstractions and a good architecture. It didn't include every possible path, but was easy enough to be continued by hand.

It's not that I would not have tought about it. But it was easier that way, and probably my handcrafted solution would be very similar (+headache).

Of course, I reviewed it extensively, and reimplemented every missing path and corrected the ones that were buggy now by hand.

For the experiment, I played with agents to fill the missing parts, it was a disaster :)

Re: AI was supposed to help juniors shine. Why does it mostly make seniors stronger?

#372
post #60

The best code I've written with an LLM has been where I architect it, I guide the LLM through the scaffolding and initial proofs of different components, and then I guide it through adding features. Along the way it makes mistakes and I guide it through fixing them. Then when it is slow, I profile and guide it through optimizations. So in the end, it's code that I know very, very well. I could have written it but it…

> I could have written it but it would have taken me about 3x longer when all is said and done. Really does not sound like that from your description. It sounds like coaching a noob, which is a lot of work in itself. Wasn’t there a study that said that using LLMs makes people feel more productive while they actually are not?

I built a new service recently.

It has about a dozen or so endpoints, facilitating real time messaging.

It took me about 4 hours to build it out, fully tested with documentation and examples and readme.

About two hours were spent setting up the architecture and tests. About 45 min to an hour setting up a few of the endpoints. The rest were generated by CC. FWIW it is using layers and SRP to the max. Everything is simple and isolated, easy to test.

I think if I had a contractor or employee do this they would have coasted for a week and still fucked it up. Adding ridiculous complexity or just fucking up.

The nice thing about AI tools is you need less people. Most people are awful at their jobs, anyone can survive a few years and call themselves senior. Most teams are only successful because of the 1 or 2 guys who pull 150% while the others are barely doing 80%.

Re: AI was supposed to help juniors shine. Why does it mostly make seniors stronger?

#373
post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know, claude did that I'm the type of reviewer that actually reads code and asks probing questions, and I've heard this from junior and senior devs alike. It's maddening how people say this with a straight face and expect to keep their jobs. If people are pushing code they don't understand, they're liability to their team, product, and employer.

The rank disrespect of somebody asking you to review something they haven't even looked at is eye watering. I feel like AI-induced brain-rot of engineers is inevitable. Unless we see AI leapfrog into something close to AGI in the future (certainly not ruling this out), I think there will be very lucrative careers available to engineers who can maintain a balanced relationship with AI.

I just felt this recently. I was sent some code for me to put into prod, a long running service. And in one func, which returned an error (Go) but still called "os.Exit" in each error handler rather then returning.

Fixing the issue was a small matter. But the amount of disrespect I felt, that I looked at it closer then anyone else apparently (which wasn't really all that close at all), when they were ostensibly building this code, that disrespect was just immense.

Re: AI was supposed to help juniors shine. Why does it mostly make seniors stronger?

#374
post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know, claude did that I'm the type of reviewer that actually reads code and asks probing questions, and I've heard this from junior and senior devs alike. It's maddening how people say this with a straight face and expect to keep their jobs. If people are pushing code they don't understand, they're liability to their team, product, and employer.

The rank disrespect of somebody asking you to review something they haven't even looked at is eye watering. I feel like AI-induced brain-rot of engineers is inevitable. Unless we see AI leapfrog into something close to AGI in the future (certainly not ruling this out), I think there will be very lucrative careers available to engineers who can maintain a balanced relationship with AI.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who gets viscerally irritated when I'm asked to review a PR that was obviously generated. You didn't take the time to write this code, but you expect me to take the time make sure it's correct, which will take far longer than a regular PR because there's no reason to assume an LLM even understood the task. Next time just be honest and ask me to do your work for you.

Re: AI was supposed to help juniors shine. Why does it mostly make seniors stronger?

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, sounds like a great opportunity to show you’re senior by mentoring.

Mentorship is unfortunately broken because gone are the days of apprenticeships. If you find a great mentor, do everything you can to learn quickly then jump ship to big tech and cash in.

There's unfortunately a crack epidemic.

Try to quickly become a drug dealer and cash in.

---

Chef's kiss. I'd like to thank people like you for where we are.

Re: AI was supposed to help juniors shine. Why does it mostly make seniors stronger?

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> another, more subtle mistake. That you must spend energy discovering and diagnosing But this is literally what senior engineers do most of the time? Have juniors write code with direction and review that it isn't buggy?

Except that most of the code seniors review was written with intention, not just the most statistically most likely response to a given query. As a senior engineer, the kinds of mistakes that AI makes are much more bizarre then the mistakes junior engineers make

>not just the most statistically most likely response to a given query.

Some people really are going to hang on until the better end (and beyond) eh?

"AI can't code like me!" people are going to get crushed.

Re: AI was supposed to help juniors shine. Why does it mostly make seniors stronger?

#377
post #233

Because juniors don't know when they're being taken down a rabbit hole. So they'll let the LLM go too deep in its hallucinations. I have a Jr that was supposed to deploy a terraform module I built. This task has been hanging out for a while so I went to check in on them. They told me the problem they're having and asked me to take a look. Their repo is a disaster, it's very obvious claude took them down a rabbit hole…

If they dont know what every line does, it shouldn’t be ready for review - regardless of if they or AI wrote it initially

Re: AI was supposed to help juniors shine. Why does it mostly make seniors stronger?

#378
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do have a point. Why waste a time on person who will always need more money over time, rather than invest in AI? Not only you don’t need to please every hire, your seniors will be more thankful too, because they will get linearly faster with time.

Outside of working for Antropic etc., there's no way you can make an LLM better at anything. You can train a junior though.

You absolutely can. It's a skill like operating IDE, CLI, etc.

Junior is a person, not your personal assistant like LLM.

Re: AI was supposed to help juniors shine. Why does it mostly make seniors stronger?

#379
post #233

Because juniors don't know when they're being taken down a rabbit hole. So they'll let the LLM go too deep in its hallucinations. I have a Jr that was supposed to deploy a terraform module I built. This task has been hanging out for a while so I went to check in on them. They told me the problem they're having and asked me to take a look. Their repo is a disaster, it's very obvious claude took them down a rabbit hole…

The problem with beginners going down the wrong path has always been there, but AI lets them go much further than before.

Re: AI was supposed to help juniors shine. Why does it mostly make seniors stronger?

#380
post #313
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like its faster to just write the code by hand

Even if that's true today ( it's not ), it becomes less true over time as tools and models improve. If you have someone who knows what they're doing with the latest and greatest coding agents it's just not comparable. You can have a Dev open up four or more terminals with multiple prompts running at the same time. A manual person just can't keep up.

Yeah but then all the code is unaudited? Its too much to review...

I generate code but I still place it there by hand, vibe code is just too full of bugs

and I find it a bit boring to wait for code to generate all the time.

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