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America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

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Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#371

Post by chii »

janalsncm wrote: post #296
legitster wrote: post #77

Everyone is going to make this about money or unions or etc, but my employer briefly worked with some ATC employee groups and I can tell you exactly why they are short staffed: - The FAA has strict hiring requirements. You have to be mentally and physically capable, and by their own admission less than 10% of applicants are qualified for the job. https://www.faa.gov/air-traffic-controller-qualifications - The trainin…

Assuming all you’ve said is true, why doesn’t every country have an ATC shortage? > cannibalizing other talent pools If we accidentally paid ATCs so much that it ate into the investment banking or high frequency trading talent pools I think we’d still be ok

but what if it ate into a doctor or surgeon's talent pool instead?

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#372

Post by nradov »

chii wrote: post #367
nradov wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ATC salary increases with experience. The better ones are promoted to supervisors.

promoting someone to their level of incompetence i see? Technical jobs should not be promotion driven at all. It should be a combination of seniority, and technical expertise/experience. Their metric should be something like number of accidents under their tenure, vs accident free hours under operation. A supervising position might not see problems as fast as someone actually doing said job, which wastes the experien…

The vast majority of aviation mishaps are entirely due to pilot error or mechanical failure. It would be stupid to count those when evaluating controllers. But the FAA does already have a rigorous process to deal with controllers who make safety errors.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#373

Post by imoverclocked »

portaouflop wrote: post #326
imoverclocked wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Technology hasn't changed is a political problem due to lack of... money. Tell me you haven’t worked in aerospace without telling me you haven’t worked in aerospace. There is plenty of money sunk into all corners of the field but progress is slow because the risk of change is lives lost. At some point, the risk of not changing means more lives lost… and that’s when things will change.

Maybe the technology part can’t be fixed easily with money but sounds to me like all the other aspects of the money argument are still valid.

Like “too much stress?”

Money only does so much to improve your life. Stress is a way to shorten your life. Long term chronic stress literally makes you ill in ways that medicine can’t fix.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#374

Post by jltsiren »

tw04 wrote: post #201
legitster wrote: post #77

Everyone is going to make this about money or unions or etc, but my employer briefly worked with some ATC employee groups and I can tell you exactly why they are short staffed: - The FAA has strict hiring requirements. You have to be mentally and physically capable, and by their own admission less than 10% of applicants are qualified for the job. https://www.faa.gov/air-traffic-controller-qualifications - The trainin…

Everything you have listed above could be solved with money. Only 10% of applicants are physically and mentally qualified? Sounds like you need more applicants? Want to attract more applicants? Offer more compensation. The training and onboarding is incredibly long? Sounds like a doctor? Do you know why people go through the pain of becoming a doctor? Because they make a lot of money when they get through the other s…

Paying too much can be counterproductive, if the job is demanding, people don't find it inherently rewarding, and most people are not qualified for it. If you earn enough to retire after 10 years, you also earn enough to feel financially secure after 3 years, quit, and find a better job.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#375

Post by asdf6969 »

portaouflop wrote: post #327
nicoburns wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Earning highly does not universally command respect the way being a doctor does. Some would even see earning that much as being immoral (i.e. actually negative)

Which very highly paid job does not command respect in society? I can’t think of any (Outside of anti-capitalist circles ofc)

Underwater welders

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#376

Post by newsclues »

stevage wrote: post #189
bobthepanda wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

part of the problem is the structural problems caused by high turnover are themselves causing high turnover. people can't take vacation, people need to work 6 days 12 hours a week. there is also the issue of location. where applicants are and where controllers are needed is often two distinct circles and once you throw relocation into remote areas into the mix it becomes really unattractive.

And not allowing people to take anxiety meds is nuts. Some of those meds seem perfect for this job, putting you in a very mellow, but focused state.

Or smoke cannabis after a hard stressful day at work

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#377

Post by insom »

chii wrote: post #365
0xB31B1B wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're simplifying the frame far too much here. My wife works in medicine as an ENT surgeon. There is an ENT surgeon position open in a rural hospital outside of fresno CA that pays 1.1M dollars/year, or about 2.5-3x the salary a large hospital in a major metro would pay for the work. The position has been unfilled for 4 years. As best I can tell, the two main reasons the job goes unfilled are a combination o…

> There is an ENT surgeon position open in a rural hospital outside of fresno CA that pays 1.1M dollars/year while 1.1m/yr sounds like a lot, it isn't the right number to consider. The right number is the difference between this job, and a similar job else where that has better facilities/amenities and comfort. If said surgeons who would qualify could've gotten a similar job in a major city for a similar amount of mo…

The commenter did say up to 3x, so up to ~730K higher than that job in a major city (with possibly better facilities but who knows)

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#378

Post by newsclues »

mcmcmc wrote: post #302
mp05 wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> at a certain point you are just going to be cannibalizing other talent pools The mass of unemployed CS grads?

What makes you think CS grads would be good candidates for a high stress job that requires excellent communication skills?

Ability to rapidly process information and react to changes.

Communication is a learned skill.

Ability to handle stress and thrive under pressure is the key.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#379

Post by RandomBacon »

gus_massa wrote: post #283
RandomBacon wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an Air Traffic Controller and I'm required by the FAA to say these opinions are my own and not necessarily of the FAA. Some fully-certified air traffic controllers cannot afford to live where they work, not to mention the trainees that have the added stress of training and making less money. At my first facility, to live within 45 minutes of work, my whole paycheck went to rent, thank goodness I had savings from…

How many hours per day? How many days per week? Paid vacations?

40 hours per week.

Most people work 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. Some work 10 hours a day, 4 days a week. A few work 10 hours one day, 6 hours a second day, and 8 hours the third/fourth/fifth days.

Many facilities are 24/7 so we have rotating schedules where people have to work the midnight shifts. Shift work is brutal.

Most controllers also work Saturdays and Sundays. Controllers often miss their kid's activities and other family or social functions.

Standard Federal leave accrual: - 4 hours of sick leave every pay period (two weeks). - Employees with 0-3 years accrue 4 hours of annual leave per pay period. - Employees with 3-15 years accrue 6 hours... - Employees with 15+ years accrue 8 hours...

We bid once a year for our RDOs (Regular Days Off aka "weekend") and annual leave for the following year.

Some controllers advocate that we should accrue more sick leave (and they make good points), and while the 4 hours may be a federal law, they could implement work-arounds such as allowing us to accrue an additional different type of leave.

Opinions are my own and not necessarily of the FAA.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#380

Post by somenameforme »

datavirtue wrote: post #298
FpUser wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"Doctor is a primal respect that technical roles do not carry." Used to be. Not anymore. Nowadays many doctors act as a smartass business people.

In my city it's an underpaid work-a-day job that half of them hate. There is something about being trapped that can make any job sick the life out of you. I remember a former CEO who would come into work each day and let out a heavy sigh before unlocking his office door. I learned that he was trapped in the job until he retired for various reasons...most of his own making.

It's the paperwork. Most people have no idea the amount of paperwork doctors have to fill out - it adds up to 20-30 hours of it per week. It's getting close to a full time job by itself. Think about how pleasant the experience is of filling out bureaucratic/government paperwork, and now imagine doing that as a full time job.
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