A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy • Hacker News Board

Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#371

Post by the_af » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 1:18 PM UTC

b112 wrote: post #283

lm28469 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Imprisonment was an extremely rare phenomenon for much of history (as was police, for that matter). And crimes weren't solved, people not prosecuted, criminals not punished For much of history life didn't even exist, that's not an argument for or against anything

Mob justice existed too. And execution for minor crime, with king's justice. Modern western police forces, with all their foibles, are far, far, far better than mob justice. Are people even aware of history, and how absolutely bloody it was, with an immense lack of personal rights? Fixing what's broken now is good. Trying to pretend it is worse than what was before, is absolutely absurd and laughable.

It's not so clear cut. At least admit that a lot of thought has been given to this, none the least by Foucalt's famous essay on this topic, Discipline and Punish.

Foucalt has his critics, but it's not immediately obvious that the massive incarceration problem in some Western nations is better than public execution at the whim of monarchs. And some forms of torture, Foucalt argued, have changed from the theatrical and public to the more subdued torture of everyday lives of prison inmates.

Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#372

Post by SamPatt » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 1:20 PM UTC

akoboldfrying wrote: post #205

p-e-w wrote: post #140

> It is the perfect combination of crap. I think that's being way too charitable. In a world where people are incarcerated on a scale unprecedented in all of human history, and where prosecutorial success is measured by number of scalps taken, the assumption that this is plain malice designed to let the state rob a few more individuals of their freedom makes much more sense than it all being just a big pile of incomp…

>designed to let the state rob a few more individuals of their freedom "The state" doesn't benefit in any way from locking people up. In fact, it costs them money (both directly and in lost taxes from the lost salaries and wages of those incarcerated). An argument could be made that prosecutors benefit from higher incarceration rates through the incentives you described. And an argument could definitely be made that…

You think states don't benefit from spending more money? They're just like other organizations who try to expand their budgets year over year.

Except they can force people to pay them more, all they need is plausible justification (like combating crime, or terrorists, or drugs, or viruses, or whatever the current societal scare happens to be about).

Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#373

Post by red_admiral » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 1:21 PM UTC

Muromec wrote: post #215

Oh the good old, violent Easter European bias mixed into crap science.

There is a skin condition called Mongolian (Blue) Spot (wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_spot ) that doctors can mistake for an infant being beaten or otherwise abused. It has led to a lot of cases of false accusations and children being forcibly removed from their parents who were then charged with child abuse.

According to Wikipedia, as to the distribution of this condition,

> The birthmark is prevalent among East, South, Southeast, North and Central Asian peoples, Indigenous Oceanians (chiefly Micronesians and Polynesians), certain populations in Africa, Amerindians, non-European Latin Americans and Caribbeans of mixed-race descent.

So you can see how, in a Western European nation, even if no-one is being biased in the sense of "hating foreigners", the false accusations would cluster in "non-indigenous" populations, for want of a better word (I originally had "immigrants" then realised that isn't the correct split I'm looking for.). Personally I believe there is no defense for doctors, courts and social workers not knowing about this and checking for it before making any accusations.

This doesn't seem to apply to Romanians / Eastern Europeans specifically, unless they have partly Asian ancestry, but it does show that there are conditions that can be mistaken for abuse that appear in some cultures more than others.

Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#374

Post by the_af » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 1:22 PM UTC

b112 wrote: post #281

p-e-w wrote: post #140

> It is the perfect combination of crap. I think that's being way too charitable. In a world where people are incarcerated on a scale unprecedented in all of human history, and where prosecutorial success is measured by number of scalps taken, the assumption that this is plain malice designed to let the state rob a few more individuals of their freedom makes much more sense than it all being just a big pile of incomp…

In a world where people are incarcerated on a scale unprecedented in all of human history, This is only true, because prior to these times, people were killed instead. Or beaten to within an inch of their lives. Local "justice", lynching, mob action, used to be far, far more common. And of course, many people used to be worked to death. Or sold into slavery. Or die from horrid conditions in jail. Or forced into the f…

> This is only true, because prior to these times, people were killed instead. Or beaten to within an inch of their lives. Local "justice", lynching, mob action, used to be far, far more common.

Hm, sounds like an assertion that ought to be checked by a historian, possibly ACoUP's blog? (Yes, the one who writes about Rome, he is sometimes featured in HN). He specializes in demolishing misconceptions people/Hollywood have about history.

For example, many historians have been writing, recently, about how medieval society was far less brutish and cruel than portrayed in pop culture. There were laws, rights the monarch gave their subjects, culture, etc. Lots of what we "know" about the middle ages from Hollywood is simply wrong.

Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#375

Post by xpe » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 1:24 PM UTC

idoubtit wrote: post #229

rapatel0 wrote: post #181

This doesn’t surprise me. We have massive systemic issues in medical science and care delivery. - Medical science handles variation by simply assuming that large enough samples will average out variation. This loses a ton of information as the “average person” is a construct that almost certainly doesn’t exist. - news media on medical science glosses over all uncertainties in the name of clickbaity sensationalism. -…

Basically, you want to replace statistics ("large enough samples will average out variation") with AI. I'm afraid that's cargo cult instead of science. AI can lie. It means a "truely personalized medicine" would sometimes poison its patients. See for instance Donald Knuth experiment with Chat GPT, starting with "Answer #3 is fouled up beautifully!" with some totally wrong AI answers https://www-cs-faculty.stanford.ed…

(I'll bring a conciliatory bias to this conversation. Under what interpretations might the ^ and ^^ comments be saying mostly the same thing?)

>> My hope is the AI+sensors ushers in the era of truely personalized medicine.

> AI can lie.

The first hope is compatible with the second fact. It is possible that carefully _designed_ AI systems (that have different architectures than 'vanilla' LLMs) can serve a useful purpose here.

There is a lot of interesting conversation to be had in 'the conciliatory zone', leaving plenty of opportunities to disagree when it is warranted.

> Basically, you want to replace statistics ("large enough samples will average out variation") with AI. I'm afraid that's cargo cult instead of science.

There is a whole lot of _assuming_ going on here, followed by a mischaracterization. This is not the paragon of curious conversation.

I don't expect perfection, but I still think we should try. I don't mean to pick on any one person; I do this sometimes as well. I'm just pointing it out because, well, it is right here, right now.

Think about the impact on the system. Seeing the anti-pattern above too often can drive people away. I think it does. Who remains? People who somehow aren't bothered by it? Downselecting in this way is self-defeating.

I'm probably just as frustrated as anyone here (if not more) regarding (i) the state of medicine, (ii) perceptions of what current AI technology can do, and (iii) many other serious problems. But we shouldn't not let this frustration bleed into our personal interactions.

It is both a waste of our time and (worse) damaging to the community ethos when we take an unnecessarily pessimistic view of _each other_. Some online fora are 'good enough' (though flawed) to help us connect and build bridges as _people_. It doesn't help when we fall into the all-too-common pattern of sniping without asking questions first and clarifying meaning.

Again, nothing personal. This is more of a rant and request.

Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#376

Post by wincy » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 1:28 PM UTC

mensetmanusman wrote: post #341

mike_hock wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Implying ripping children out of their families willy-nilly is "more developed."

Its tongue in cheek. Germany is developed, but you will get arrested if you try to homeschool your children.

It’s very important your children be taught whatever it is the government wants them to be taught! Which went very well for Germany in the 1930s…

Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#377

Post by Dah00n » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 1:28 PM UTC

haswell wrote: post #340

mike_hock wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Implying ripping children out of their families willy-nilly is "more developed."

Development past a certain point is not universally a good thing. The term is used to describe the stages a country has been through, and there’s plenty of evidence that as countries develop further, the nature of those developments may or may not be beneficial. Brexit, online safety and other forms of “progress” come to mind.

[flagged]

Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#378

Post by Dah00n » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 1:29 PM UTC

RektBoy wrote: post #270

Muromec wrote: post #215

Oh the good old, violent Easter European bias mixed into crap science.

It also because north Europe has one of the most toxic social services in the world, kidnapping kids 24/7. That's basically their job.

No.

Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#379

Post by Dah00n » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 1:31 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #299

woof wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like the bias is on your part… Which is ironic, given the articles content…. Or do you have _evidence_?

Not everything comes with evidence, nor is everything a court case. If you have experienced racism again and again though, you can often tell when you see it, or you can quite safely deduce it in a case or wrong treatment, even without hard proof.

And yet they are wrong, so clearly evidence was needed.

Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#380

Post by sanderjd » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 1:31 PM UTC

dartos wrote: post #88

sanderjd wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I dunno... I mean, a lot of these things are true, and they all are big problems, but also, in my experience, academics (at least in the sciences) do actually know how to read and understand research, which is an extremely difficult and useful skill.

That’s okay, I know. Anyone with the wherewithal can learn to “read and understand research” it’s not a magical power bestowed upon the few who receive recognition from some long standing bloated institution. Attributing the drive and work of an individual to such an institution is weird and elitist. I should note that if said institution paid for, assembled the team, and provided resources, then that institution obv…

I think this is a misunderstanding of how stuff works. I agree that anyone (or at least a large percentage of people) can learn to do it and it isn't a magical power.

But it's far more common for academics to be able to do it because that's what academics learn to do. It's a large focus of the training.

It isn't elitist to say "car mechanics are good at reading and acting on the information in car engine manuals", that's just what car mechanics are trained to do and get consistent practice at doing.