80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans • Hacker News Board

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#371

Post by logical_ferry » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 12:07 PM UTC

yieldcrv wrote: post #165

troupe wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it funny that when people were required to be home, employers talked about what great productivity they were getting with people at home. Then when it isn't required anymore, they want everyone back in the office for...productivity. My guess is that most employers really have no way to measure if an employee is being productive or not so managers are just reporting what makes them look good...and now we are ba…

I’ve started talking about crystals to attract hot chicks that are already into crystals. Many are, or want to believe, just like researchers want to believe in a room temperature superconductor. The alpha is that pedantic and over-analytical guys dismiss crystal energy at the expense of their reproductive opportunities, and the way around it is literally just not doing that. One thing I quickly noticed is that the p…

Not sure I follow the logic.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

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Post by Icathian » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 12:07 PM UTC

wruza wrote: post #308

ekianjo wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The social animal bullshit is a myth. You can see it around you everyday. People in public places everywhere spending time on their phones rather than talking to people around them

Maybe it’s not a myth, in a sense that without a phone they had to interact and learn how to do it, but that is too bad compared to what phones give for free.

You ever see that old black and white picture of folks on the NY subway in the 1940s, all reading their own newspaper?

Forcing conversation on random people you happen to be sharing a space with has always been psychopath behavior.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

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Post by floucky » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 12:13 PM UTC

o1y32 wrote: post #367

floucky wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you think full remote is kind of selfish? I mean, I also love it, but what about new hires and junior? How are they going to learn and improve if each time they have a question, they need to post it on slack and just wait...

Did it occur to you that there are people who were hired during the pandemic, who had full virtual onboarding experience? How did they survive? Actually I myself joined my current company after March 2020. I can't imagine a 5-day, in-person experience would be any more effective or productive. If anything, I was able to completely pay no attention the mandatory training of "corporate value" nonsense -- it felt great…

I joined a new company in September, and most of my colleagues were fully remote. I have enough experience and was able to handle myself, but when I imagine this situation in my first year, I'm sure it would have been much harder.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

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Post by watwut » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 12:14 PM UTC

throwaway72957 wrote: post #98

atleastoptimal wrote: post #15

I understand the merits of WFH and in-person work. One thing that is however funny is the guilt tripping used by employers who have this straw-man version of a lazy WFH employee, and more so, employers who have a delusion that their workplace is important enough that people need to sacrifice a large portion of their lives just for the opportunity to be there in person. 90% of jobs aren't people's "passions" and have…

We have a generous hybrid work policy: you can WFH, but you may be required to attend on-site sessions and meetings, for example if we're doing architecture brainstorms or design reviews. We've not found this to work well over zoom. Overall, this works out to a day or two a month, but most people choose to come in at least 1 day a week for various reasons (mostly social). We casually observed there seemed to be a spl…

> We're in the UK so just firing people without cause isn't an option

It seems to me that if they are working few seconds every 20 minutes, there should be drop in their actual productivity. If these people have half functioning managers, they should be able to figure that out.

Dismissing people for having almost no output is dismissing for a cause.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#375

Post by okaram » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 12:14 PM UTC

mkl95 wrote: post #52

atleastoptimal wrote: post #15

I understand the merits of WFH and in-person work. One thing that is however funny is the guilt tripping used by employers who have this straw-man version of a lazy WFH employee, and more so, employers who have a delusion that their workplace is important enough that people need to sacrifice a large portion of their lives just for the opportunity to be there in person. 90% of jobs aren't people's "passions" and have…

> Lots of employers like to delude themselves that their company is some big important, cutting-edge enterprise that's making a real impact in the world. Pretty much. The only time I've considered going back to in-person work since the pandemic was for a FAANG. If you think your employees want to go back to the office, you are either a big tech company or you are deluded

Actually, I work for one of the FAANGs. The vast majority of employees don't one to go back to the office either.

What makes it even worse is the one-size-fits-all mandate, with strict enforcement, like you didn't come in to the office Monday, so you have to come on Tuesday.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#376

Post by floucky » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 12:16 PM UTC

rco8786 wrote: post #369

floucky wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you think full remote is kind of selfish? I mean, I also love it, but what about new hires and junior? How are they going to learn and improve if each time they have a question, they need to post it on slack and just wait...

I see this argument all the time, but I've onboarded like a dozen new hires and juniors since going fully remote in 2020. It's fine. The tools and processes are different, but fundamentally it's still just about communicating and working together. You genuinely do not have to be in the same physical room to do that. That said, the problem I do see is that the folks hired into a fully remote environment have a signifi…

Well, these people were lucky to have you. Unfortunately, many people just want to not be disturbed, and it's much easier to ignore someone through Slack than in person.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

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Post by Hendrikto » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 12:17 PM UTC

petre wrote: post #263

GMoromisato wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Complete tangent: I wonder if it's uniquely American to believe that people can/should only be passionate about jobs that are world-changing. Or maybe it's just very common in the tech-world and HN. I'm absolutely guilty of this. I'm a software engineer, and I feel proud of having worked on products that millions of people use. Steve Jobs's challenge to "put a dent in the universe" is axiomatic for many of us. Yet I…

> Yet I know that in other countries (e.g., Japan) there is a belief that any job, no matter how humble, is worth doing well and that passion for excellence is a virtue That's a reason why the quality of most Japanese products is superlative. Another nation that is passionate about their stuff are Italians, but they value good looks and good food above all. The US values profits and growth and China values high outpu…

> Another nation that is passionate about their stuff are Italians

At least where I am from, Italians have a reputation for shoddy products, laziness, and not caring. As you say: They are happy as long as the facade looks good. Behind the scenes is a mess.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

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Post by ascotan » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 12:33 PM UTC

wonderwonder wrote: post #225

deaddodo wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Open offices are the literal reason (after commuting/traffic) that I no longer want to go into the office. My work doesn't require a ton of person:person engagement and it's much easier for me to just zone out in my own headspace to do it. When I was required in the office, I would just wear headphones to avoid distractions, but I would have to deal with 2-3hrs of driving/day on top of it. This meant that my employer…

Open offices are terrible. Management knows they are as well because Sr. leadership almost always have their own offices. The peons sit in the pit. Until the CEO is sitting next to everyone else they are all speaking lies when preaching the benefits of an open office. The only benefit is that its cheaper and they can keep an eye on you.

it's a millennial thing. they grew up working on laptops and their dream office is to make the workplace look like starbucks. Open seating, no cubicles, a barista. It's a knee-jerk reaction to the old office place standard of 'cubes'. Managers hire out to consultants that hype this type of office layout because it will supposedly attract a talent.

To be fair, cubes weren't any better. I remember having a guy slerping tea sitting across from me. I couldn't see him but I could sure hear him and there was no way for me to get up and move.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#379

Post by JPws_Prntr_Fngr » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 12:35 PM UTC

johnnyanmac wrote: post #279

bluefirebrand wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that it's still the result of human action, it's purposeful and intentional. It's just not conspiracy. It's not emergent out of nowhere. It's emergent out of shitty people being in positions of power and influence.

>it's still the result of human action, it's purposeful and intentional. Orcheastras imply a conductor, a central figure with the score to direct their symphony to play. 1000 conductors means there is no conductor. Each one may have a purpose and intention, but a conspiracy implies... well, conspiring. That isn't a conspiracy, it's a mob. Even if somehow the symphony manages to make a melody out of the madness, it's…

You are doing incredible mental contortions to avoid acknowledging the concept of a cartel.

When OPEC raises global oil prices, that's the result of a collective, negotiated action, and a conspiracy.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

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Post by dudul » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 12:35 PM UTC

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #353

dudul wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you get that coordination and creativity require in person time? I would argue that most creative activities are better done alone in a cabin in the middle of the woods. And I coordinate just fine with tools available online.

I think you might be mistaking the kind of co-ordination that is possible with CI/CD tools to the co-ordination possible with shouting at each other in a room or having coffee or just being part of human interactions If you are emailing people and co-ordinating that way you are already part of the political in-group. If so then co-ordination is fine. But who is part of the political in-group, especially for constantl…

I was not talking about CI/CD tools, but things like slack, tickets, wiki, shared calendars, etc.

I "shout" at my coworkers through slack and I feel like it achieves the same result as if we were in an open office. Better even since they can wait until they reach a stopping point in their current activity to answer me.

I do not believe in the magical "water cooler" conversation. I worked almost 10 years in an office before going full remote 6 years ago and I've never seen or heard this amazing conversation over coffee during which the next Gen product is discussed. Just my empirical experience, but lunch conversations are usually about batching about the clueless PM, or deciding where to get a drink after work, or stuff like that.