80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans • Hacker News Board

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#201

Post by refurb » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 2:13 AM UTC

ChuckMcM wrote: post #39

I had lunch, not too long ago, with a senior executive of a silicon valley tech company that was moaning about how much of a pain it was to get people to come into the office and how it felt like things would never return to the way they were. And I told them I actually knew of a way to get 100% of their employees to return to the office happily. When they asked what this magic bullet was I said, "Go back to offices,…

I'm not sure that would be the magic bullet, but you're on the right track. If you want people to return to the office, use carrots not sticks.

I personally can't stand virtual meetings with more than 2 or 3 people. They are wildly more inefficient then in person. Add on top a meeting focused on brainstorms or discuss and it's a shit show.

Give people a reason to return, and have it actually be true, and people won't complain about being asked.

But just saying "you need to be back in the office just because" is just going to breed resentment.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#202

Post by GMoromisato » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 2:13 AM UTC

atleastoptimal wrote: post #15

I understand the merits of WFH and in-person work. One thing that is however funny is the guilt tripping used by employers who have this straw-man version of a lazy WFH employee, and more so, employers who have a delusion that their workplace is important enough that people need to sacrifice a large portion of their lives just for the opportunity to be there in person. 90% of jobs aren't people's "passions" and have…

Complete tangent: I wonder if it's uniquely American to believe that people can/should only be passionate about jobs that are world-changing. Or maybe it's just very common in the tech-world and HN.

I'm absolutely guilty of this. I'm a software engineer, and I feel proud of having worked on products that millions of people use. Steve Jobs's challenge to "put a dent in the universe" is axiomatic for many of us.

Yet I know that in other countries (e.g., Japan) there is a belief that any job, no matter how humble, is worth doing well and that passion for excellence is a virtue inside us and is not conditional on the perceived pecking order of the job.

If we had such an attitude, maybe it would be easier to feel fulfilled--if you're holding out for changing the world before you can be happy, you're (statistically) going to die miserable. On the other hand, maybe a culture in which we give 110% to meaningless jobs is just another chain for the rich and powerful to keep us productive.

I honestly don't know.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#203

Post by rconti » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 2:14 AM UTC

water9 wrote: post #64

atleastoptimal wrote: post #15

I understand the merits of WFH and in-person work. One thing that is however funny is the guilt tripping used by employers who have this straw-man version of a lazy WFH employee, and more so, employers who have a delusion that their workplace is important enough that people need to sacrifice a large portion of their lives just for the opportunity to be there in person. 90% of jobs aren't people's "passions" and have…

Acting like all humans will work equally as hard when they are supervised vs unsupervised is completely naïve

My last 3 managers (since 2020) have all been in a different office than my "home" office.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#204

Post by re-thc » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 2:16 AM UTC

atleastoptimal wrote: post #15

I understand the merits of WFH and in-person work. One thing that is however funny is the guilt tripping used by employers who have this straw-man version of a lazy WFH employee, and more so, employers who have a delusion that their workplace is important enough that people need to sacrifice a large portion of their lives just for the opportunity to be there in person. 90% of jobs aren't people's "passions" and have…

> One thing that is however funny is the guilt tripping used by employers who have this straw-man version of a lazy WFH employee, and more so, employers who have a delusion that their workplace is important enough that people need to sacrifice a large portion of their lives just for the opportunity to be there in person.

If only it's all the "employers" fault. I've seen plenty of employees post on social media about how their office is "alive" again and feeling the "vibes" of their team with photos sharing them and their co-workers in-office.

It's the pro-office crowd in general that wants to crush everyone. Some employers are guilt-tripped or forced to support these loud people. They would complain that it's lonely and no 1 is coming to the office with them.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#205

Post by marcosdumay » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 2:18 AM UTC

ilc wrote: post #150

marcosdumay wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are assuming the employees will just accept their exceptional situation instead of using it to gain some time and jumping ship. You are also assuming the managers know beforehand who are high-value employees. I doubt either of those are true.

You are assuming managers want to keep high performing employees.

Yeah, I am. To be fair, I inherited that assumption from the GP.

Anyway, you are right, mature business that have no further space to grow may not want to keep them at all. Even when they aren't a differential, they are still worth more than they cost on maintenance, but there are plenty of companies that just skip maintenance and it's not obvious at all if they are any worse for it.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#206

Post by eulgro » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 2:33 AM UTC

GMoromisato wrote: post #202

atleastoptimal wrote: post #15

I understand the merits of WFH and in-person work. One thing that is however funny is the guilt tripping used by employers who have this straw-man version of a lazy WFH employee, and more so, employers who have a delusion that their workplace is important enough that people need to sacrifice a large portion of their lives just for the opportunity to be there in person. 90% of jobs aren't people's "passions" and have…

Complete tangent: I wonder if it's uniquely American to believe that people can/should only be passionate about jobs that are world-changing. Or maybe it's just very common in the tech-world and HN. I'm absolutely guilty of this. I'm a software engineer, and I feel proud of having worked on products that millions of people use. Steve Jobs's challenge to "put a dent in the universe" is axiomatic for many of us. Yet I…

I find it very difficult to find meaning in a large portion of the jobs available today. Most workers are just another cog in the wheel. The system is so large that one cannot directly appreciate the effects of their work, or even know whether they are positive at all.

This contrasts with say, a subsistance farmer who produces food for their family and lives in a small community where every product of their labor has a known and appreciable impact. In that case, the equivalent goal of "changing the world" is "helping the community", which is much more attainable.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#207

Post by eulgro » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 2:34 AM UTC

throw__away7391 wrote: post #194

SoftTalker wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, when I work from home, I watch TV all day. Not literally -- I mostly read HN and other sites, do personal email, do household tasks, walk the dogs, do a load of laundry. I still get my work done, to a "meets expectations" level, which takes me a few hours, normally right after lunch, and that's good enough for me.

I start work around 6:00 AM and frequently am still at it at 8:00 PM. I've always been a top performer, but I still worry I'm not productive enough and that I'll get laid off. I still prefer this arrangement to going to the office.

Is this satire? If not I don't think that's a sustainable lifestyle.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#208

Post by csomar » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 2:36 AM UTC

closeparen wrote: post #153

I have a new conspiracy theory on RTO in Big Tech. Much has been said about commercial real estate. But I think getting highly capable people to work hard for you is a difficult problem & something tech executives put a lot of thought into. If you don't pay people enough, someone else will. But if you pay them too much, they'll become financially independent. Mid six figures is an objectively life-changing amount of…

It's not a conspiracy theory, it's how the system works. You are taxed on pretty much all of your income either from the state, the landlord, the credit card company or the lifestyle obligations that stems from the area you are living in.

> And that's right where they want you.

This is the part where we diverge, and I think where people confuse emerging phenomena for conspiracy.

There is no one orchestrating this.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#209

Post by MBCook » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 2:40 AM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #190

MBCook wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t forget that a lot of offices are leased for many years or even purchased/built. Do you know what looks REALLY bad? A giant fancy office with five people in it. Better force people to fill it up. We are stuck, we spent the money, can’t have it look bad.

Who cares what it looks like. Sunk cost fallacy

Executives who dream of big fancy offices?

Workers certainly don’t.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#210

Post by cgio » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 2:44 AM UTC

throwaway72957 wrote: post #98

atleastoptimal wrote: post #15

I understand the merits of WFH and in-person work. One thing that is however funny is the guilt tripping used by employers who have this straw-man version of a lazy WFH employee, and more so, employers who have a delusion that their workplace is important enough that people need to sacrifice a large portion of their lives just for the opportunity to be there in person. 90% of jobs aren't people's "passions" and have…

We have a generous hybrid work policy: you can WFH, but you may be required to attend on-site sessions and meetings, for example if we're doing architecture brainstorms or design reviews. We've not found this to work well over zoom. Overall, this works out to a day or two a month, but most people choose to come in at least 1 day a week for various reasons (mostly social). We casually observed there seemed to be a spl…

They just procrastinate on their own rather than corporate laptop when at home. The solution is to make work about delivery rather than hours on a chair. If someone can do it in 20 seconds then good for them, less good for you (not personally) in terms of how efficient you are in allocating work and managing its delivery. Very few employees are motivated to do more than asked for them. The rest are not the exception but the norm, and getting them back in office with unchanged work management will only help in having them look elsewhere. That’s a motivation perhaps but if you have work to do you still need to improve because the next round of employees will be similarly distributed.