People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living • Hacker News Board

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#371

Post by s1artibartfast » Sat, May 20, 2023, 9:11 PM UTC

spacedcowboy wrote: post #360

s1artibartfast wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a terrible experience you are going through. I hope it makes a turn for the better, and soon. I'm curious what you mean by one of your closing comments: >Still trying to answer "why won't someone help me ?" without sounding trite and jaded Not looking to debate, but genuinely curious.

Because I agree with her that she's not getting the help she needs, but I don't know where else to go. - Her PCP seems useless - basically a glorified project manager for other expert opinions, and the time taken to get appointments with these experts is straining. - Going to urgent care, or doing an 'online Dr visit' just gets the advice to go to ER instead, because of the breathing. - Going to ER (which we have, se…

Thanks, I see now. For some reason I thought you were talking about non-medical help for yourself. I guess you are in some sense looking for non-medical help navigating the medical system itself.

I'm guessing any advice I offer you would have already thought of, but maybe you can pay over the counter for a medical consultant in the UK or anywhere for that matter

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#372

Post by robotresearcher » Sat, May 20, 2023, 9:17 PM UTC

anonymouskimmer wrote: post #338

mthoms wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Upon closer inspection, it's an exact reprint of from an article from "National Review" which is a famously conservative organization. >This was a commentary piece which quoted (to comment on) other sources. Understood. I just thought I'd point out the potential for bias because it isn't obvious at a quick read. One of the great things about HN (IMHO) is that people tend to discuss things from a more scientific persp…

This particular issue is difficult to discuss from a scientific perspective, because basically the only non-opinion (i.e. ideological) questions that can be asked are: whether making assisted suicide legal increases or decreases total suicides, and what are the economic impacts of assisted suicide legalization. Everything else about assisted suicide is ideological or ideological driven (at minimum, the balance betwee…

What’s the basis of this strong claim?

Some people are opposed to suicide under any circumstances because it is proscribed by their religion. They have been told by an authority that it’s wrong. They hold a strong bias against it.

For people without that view, why would they be biased? Are they not free to come to their own conclusion? Having an opinion does not preclude a good faith argument. And holding an opinion contrary to someone’s dogma does not make an opinion dogmatic.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#373

Post by robotresearcher » Sat, May 20, 2023, 9:19 PM UTC

pseudalopex wrote: post #329

anonymouskimmer wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. People also use the phrase "committing a traffic infraction". "Committing to each other in marriage" "Committing to a college" "Committing money to a cause" "Committing to God by accepting Jesus as your lord and savior" :D I totally understand that there's baggage to this word (suicide). Given the totality of the ending of life I feel that highlighting all of these connotations with the word "suicide" is a good…

Commit and commit to have different meanings. You do not say people committed marriage.

You can be in a committed marriage.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#374

Post by firstplacelast » Sat, May 20, 2023, 9:26 PM UTC

Name_Chawps wrote: post #138

Wronnay wrote: post #47

"Why hasn’t the number of deaths by suicide decreased?" That housing and groceries is getting more and more expensive certainly doesn't help with that... Of course, not so many people in this world suffer anymore from hunger but in the last years additional problems came up. I know some older people who think that Depression is just a excuse for not wanting to work but these older people had it easier to build or buy…

You truly think housing and food have anything to do with it? We live in the richest society in history, and also the most suicidal. Why don't people living in true poverty around the world feel depressed and kill themselves like we do? Why do we kill ourselves? It's because we have no communities anymore. Many of us are alone. Some call it a loneliness epidemic. And we've replaced community with social media. Our so…

Absolutely, yes.

I can’t speak for everyone, but for whatever reason those things cause me (a very middle-class person) a lot of stress.

Maybe because of what I was taught or how I grew up or my experiences, which are not the same for everyone, but it’s still there. I’ve been food insecure, been temporarily homeless, had to bounce around from place to place without much money to my name when younger.

Not being able to put down roots stresses me out. Will rent go up? Will landlord sell my place (has happened before), will I need to move to the middle of nowhere in my late 40’s and start all over building a community?

I’m not looking for a nice SFH as a need, just a mediocre condo, but in a very expensive place. It’s where the jobs are, unfortunately. Relying on other people’s income (roommate/spouse) does not solve this issue for me.

While there are many different issues for many different people, not being able to carve out a space for yourself is very stressful for many people.

I’ve talked about this in therapy. Get married or look at all the poor people worse off is what I am told. Not helpful.

It is what it is, I guess.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#375

Post by hn92726819 » Sat, May 20, 2023, 9:30 PM UTC

spacedcowboy wrote: post #309

rcpt wrote: post #277

“The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high…

This is where my wife was, a week or so ago. She was initially admitted to hospital for low Sodium (hyponatremia) with no obvious symptoms - we actually went for something else which was benign. They corrected the low Sodium, but they corrected it quickly - possibly too quickly [1]. The next day she started to become non-responsive, and the day after was completely non-responsive - didn't react to pain stimuli, dropp…

> They actually released her the next day, and now she's terrified of "going back". I'm not saying the officials did anything wrong - they didn't - they were courteous but implacable, but they were just doing an unpleasant job.

I do not know your experience obviously, but this reads like more weight is put on how they handled it and less on your wife's experience. I'm glad they didn't handle it poorly (which is already too common), but being held against your will can be a seriously traumatizing experience. Regardless of if they did the "right" or "wrong" thing, the fear of losing your rights again can be severe and cause even more damage in the long term. I just want to make sure her likely terrible experience isn't overlooked because the medics followed their instructions.

In my personal experience, I had a traumatic experience after talking about suicide as well. I didn't talk to anyone about it for many years afterwords because of that experience and the fear of it happening again. Arguably, I'm worse off because of that, since I have felt significantly better after eventually opening up and (luckily) not having a second traumatizing experience. But I recognize that even though everyone followed their orders properly, it can be terrifying to the individual.

> On the plus side, she's not mentioned anything about taking her life since.

Again, I don't know your personal experience, but I would strongly suggest you talk to her about this. Not mentioning it does not mean not thinking about it, especially if there's been a traumatizing experience in the past related to openly discussing suicide. She might be on edge discussing this topic with anyone, including you, because of the experience she had. I know what helped me is knowing I had someone that I could talk to without risk of being "turned in," which I suspect you wouldn't want to subject her to again. You can fact check me on this: talking about it won't "plant the idea" back in her head or anything.

You sound like you care a lot about her. Someone like you is the reason I'm here still, so you're doing something right :)

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#376

Post by comeondude » Sat, May 20, 2023, 10:02 PM UTC

JacKTrocinskI wrote: post #275

comeondude wrote: post #253

As somebody who have been in and out mental hospitals, this is very familiar. At one point in my early twenties, I was literally thinking about killing myself every single waking second. Finally I decided to throw in the towel, and got around to planning my end. Sat there, ran through various scenarios in my head. All the way up to putting the gun in my mouth and pulling the trigger. My imagination always terminated…

I'm really glad to hear you made it through such a challenging time in your life. Your strength and determination are incredibly inspiring. I'm curious to know more about your healing process. Did you work on identifying and addressing the root causes of your pain, perhaps through therapy or counseling? Sometimes, personal issues can stem from our familial relationships. Did you find that to be the case in your journ…

Thank you.

It was a long winding journey. Generational trauma is definitely a real thing.

I tried a lot of things, from therapy to drugs to sex clubs, was grasping at straws, trying to understand what was happening.

It was a complicated and personal journey, but my biggest breakthrough occurred when I surrendered to the healing powers of my body and spirit.

I had to just stop and do nothing, and just allow all the hurt, shame, and fear come up to be processed. My ego fought like hell to keep them suppressed.

My mind was a storm of self-abuse, thoughtforms that told me that I was worthless and to be destroyed. I had to learn how to accept them and return to my heart (my emotional center) and just practice sitting with my feelings. Over time these thoughts dissipated, and I saw that they were driven by unrecognized emotional energy and signals from my body.

I was fortunate that I managed to create a situation that allowed me to lie fallow for a long time to heal.

There were many layers, but the crux of my issues was being severed from my authentic self. This happened because I grew up in a household with a lot of emotional abuse and coercive control, to the point where I suppressed myself and created a persona to survive.

If you read accounts of cult-abuse survivors, it’s like their real self is always trying to break through but they have been trained or mislead into ignoring themselves.

My experience was very similar.

I could write more about this, but pivotal points were recognizing that I had agency, learning how to trust my body and emotions over my ego, and understanding that at our core, we are love.

Had to learn how to love myself unconditionally basically; a constant practice.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#377

Post by s1artibartfast » Sat, May 20, 2023, 10:03 PM UTC

cat_plus_plus wrote: post #351

s1artibartfast wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is pretty simple. It is that the critical differences are on the inside, not on the outside. I wasn't taking a position on what people should do with this information, but I think that understanding the fact is important if you want to change anything , or simply understand how the world works. In the context of depression, I think it is up to the individual if they want to change. In your example, the relev…

My opinion is that in the end I don't think really wanting a change is enough for most people in sad social circumstances. They simply do not have the stamina, the skills or the opportunities to get out of the rut. For example, I have a much more modest desire to have a shared hobby with is common and not expensive or difficult to pursue and a group of friends (casual to start with) to go and do that in free time. I…

>My opinion is that in the end I don't think really wanting a change is enough for most people in sad social circumstances. They simply do not have the stamina, the skills or the opportunities to get out of the rut.

I would agree that it often isn't enough by itself. My thinking is more along the the lines that it is a necessary prerequisite, but not always sufficient by itself. Nothing in this life is guaranteed.

Im not interested in judging some random stranger. Maybe they should have tried harder, maybe they should have tried something else. Maybe it would have worked, maybe it wouldn't. However, I know if they dont try, then they have no chance.

My advice to a friend or someone I cared for would be different. You can't let your happiness be contingent of factors outside your control. If you can't make yourself happy, you are extremely unlikely to find someone or something else to do it for you. If you don't like who you are, then you need to start there because you cant run from yourself. The bad news is that it is your problem to fix, and the good news is that it is your problem to fix. Success is not guaranteed, but these are baseline facts you need to accept if you want to have a chance at change.

You cant force someone to be your friend, let alone a romantic partner.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#378

Post by spacedcowboy » Sat, May 20, 2023, 10:12 PM UTC

hn92726819 wrote: post #375

spacedcowboy wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is where my wife was, a week or so ago. She was initially admitted to hospital for low Sodium (hyponatremia) with no obvious symptoms - we actually went for something else which was benign. They corrected the low Sodium, but they corrected it quickly - possibly too quickly [1]. The next day she started to become non-responsive, and the day after was completely non-responsive - didn't react to pain stimuli, dropp…

> They actually released her the next day, and now she's terrified of "going back". I'm not saying the officials did anything wrong - they didn't - they were courteous but implacable, but they were just doing an unpleasant job. I do not know your experience obviously, but this reads like more weight is put on how they handled it and less on your wife's experience. I'm glad they didn't handle it poorly (which is alrea…

It did come up - it's hard to avoid an elephant in a room, despite the saying... I'm not going to go into details, but we did and do talk.

I also don't want to give the impression that my concern is more for the process than my wife - while writing, I didn't want to be seen to be blaming them for enforcing the 3-day hold. Once someone's called it in, and the police making the house-call decide it's plausible, they don't deviate. They were kind, but firm, is all I was trying to say.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#379

Post by comeondude » Sat, May 20, 2023, 10:12 PM UTC

comeondude wrote: post #376

JacKTrocinskI wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really glad to hear you made it through such a challenging time in your life. Your strength and determination are incredibly inspiring. I'm curious to know more about your healing process. Did you work on identifying and addressing the root causes of your pain, perhaps through therapy or counseling? Sometimes, personal issues can stem from our familial relationships. Did you find that to be the case in your journ…

Thank you. It was a long winding journey. Generational trauma is definitely a real thing. I tried a lot of things, from therapy to drugs to sex clubs, was grasping at straws, trying to understand what was happening. It was a complicated and personal journey, but my biggest breakthrough occurred when I surrendered to the healing powers of my body and spirit. I had to just stop and do nothing, and just allow all the hu…

And a big part of the self-love journey was learning how to truly take care of myself. How to eat properly, how to rest, cutting out toxic people from my life, becoming clear with my boundaries, forgiving myself, accepting my pace of progress, and so on.

Once I recognized the pain in my heart, I just kept returning to it, and over time that guided me towards the truth.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#380

Post by spacedcowboy » Sat, May 20, 2023, 10:22 PM UTC

ianburrell wrote: post #369

spacedcowboy wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because I agree with her that she's not getting the help she needs, but I don't know where else to go. - Her PCP seems useless - basically a glorified project manager for other expert opinions, and the time taken to get appointments with these experts is straining. - Going to urgent care, or doing an 'online Dr visit' just gets the advice to go to ER instead, because of the breathing. - Going to ER (which we have, se…

Can you find a new PCP? One that may not be a good family doctor but can coordinate care. You are probably already doing it, but I have heard that it is really important to have advocate when patient can't organize themselves. If you can, go to appointments, take notes, and ask lots of questions. Push on uncertainty until get tests and answers. Try and solve separate problems, like Ativan dependency, so can focus on…

I'm in the process of looking for a new PCP - although now we actually do have access to the specialists that I think we needed to, and our interaction is more or less just "send a non-urgent message" on the web-platform, and get a referral back the next working day.

I am at every single one of these appointments - I was in a better position to recall how things went down, and I am very much her advocate. She's had many many tests - which have ruled out a lot of truly terrifying things, but there is still no affirmative diagnosis of what it is she has. The last discharge from ER listed her as having "restless leg syndrome" - which is obviously not a diagnosis. The tremors in her legs are a symptom, not a cause, and they only started after the sodium levels were raised.

The treatment was the prednisone that the neurologist put her on prior to getting the MRI data, but prednisone has its own side-effects, so we were told to stop taking it once the MRI data was obtained.

The "Undiagnosed diseases network" is a great find - thank you. I have just enrolled her case in "Teladoc" which can give 'expert medical opinions' using her release notes and visit documentation. I'm hopeful they might find something, but the UDN looks like 'House' for real. I'll definitely look into it :)