Twitter restricted in Turkey in aftermath of earthquake • Hacker News Board

Re: Twitter restricted in Turkey in aftermath of earthquake

#371

Post by peyton » Wed, Feb 08, 2023, 6:26 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #354

alphanullmeric wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your scenario is not equivalent. A buyer and seller shake on an implicit contract when a purchase is made, and enforcement of a contract you agreed to is not censorship. A more accurate comparison would be me posting a picture of a 3 watt bulb online, claiming it is a 5 watt bulb. I don’t believe that should be illegal, and you would if you were consistent.

No, his scenario is not equivalent, but here's a few more: "Hello, this is just a reminder that your voting station will be open between 5 pm and 9 pm in (somewhere where it's not actually located), please remember to vote!" "Hello, if you would like a free ride to your voting station, please text us 'YES', and wait at (location) between X and Y pm (Nobody will show up)." "Hello, we have a great offer for auto insura…

Except for the last, those are just lies that people in power find inconvenient. People were saying way more ridiculous things in the summer of 1787, and yet the country I live in enshrined free speech rights.

Re: Twitter restricted in Turkey in aftermath of earthquake

#372

Post by slg » Wed, Feb 08, 2023, 6:27 PM UTC

smcn wrote: post #170

NotYourLawyer wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution to bad speech is more speech. Not less.

That would only be the solution if the problem was bad speech. The problem is that algorithms optimise for engagement and therefore amplify increasingly extremist views. You cannot talk your way out of that position, it surely must include intervention?

These algorithms are a multiplier to the problem, but they aren't the root cause. You can find plenty of misinformation on cable news and you can't blame that exclusively on algorithms.

Re: Twitter restricted in Turkey in aftermath of earthquake

#373

Post by dalbasal » Wed, Feb 08, 2023, 6:27 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #24

can16358p wrote: post #19

Turkish here. This is unbelievable, but totally expected from the current "democractic" government. Social media usage is very high in Türkiye and people are coordinating using social media (mainly Twitter) for rescue operations in near realtime. I'm pretty much sure some people will literally die under wreckage because of communication interruptions as the result of this block. (For anyone telling to use VPN, yeah,…

When you use quotes around “Democratic” do you mean the elections are rigged? I’m not familiar with the legitimacy or lack thereof of Turkish elections.

Not (AFAIK) the elections, but everything else. Highly restricted media (many journalists in jail) and now social media. Many opposition leaders, judges jailed, exiled or otherwise "purged." Over 100k of them. Constant fiddling with the constitution and election system to increase his own power.

"Democracy," in the sense that refers to the democratic systems of government in existence, is a bundle. Elections without free press, expression, freedom to organize and such... That's no longer "democracy" in that sense of the term.

Re: Twitter restricted in Turkey in aftermath of earthquake

#374

Post by WaxProlix » Wed, Feb 08, 2023, 6:27 PM UTC

dvt wrote: post #347

kibwen wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bit like saying "the darkness is bad, so the solution is light, and if the light ever becomes blinding, the solution is more light ". Speech is not the point, it's just a medium for useful information. More speech is only good to the extent that it proliferates useful information. If useless spam speech is used to overwhelm useful speech, then that undermines the whole point of the principle of free speech.…

> This is a bit like saying "the darkness is bad, so the solution is light, and if the light ever becomes blinding, the solution is more light" Completely untenable analogy. Why people say is that the solution is more speech is due to the antecedent concept of the marketplace of ideas and that, by and large, ideas are sifted via free speech and the good ones last while the bad ones die. You cannot have this sorting p…

> concept of the marketplace of ideas and that, by and large, ideas are sifted via free speech and the good ones last while the bad ones die

This might be the core of it then, because while I generally agree with the idea of Free Speech in the abstract, I don't think that it's been having good outcomes for society in the era of the cultic milieu, and I think that has to do with this 'marketplace' idea not really holding water. (Maybe I just don't want to admit that my sense of what makes a "good idea" is wrong, and the success of eg Qanon as a meme means that I should just change my thinking and accept it as a winning meme and therefore a Good Idea.)

Re: Twitter restricted in Turkey in aftermath of earthquake

#375

Post by MengerSponge » Wed, Feb 08, 2023, 6:27 PM UTC

cultofmetatron wrote: post #37

can16358p wrote: post #19

Turkish here. This is unbelievable, but totally expected from the current "democractic" government. Social media usage is very high in Türkiye and people are coordinating using social media (mainly Twitter) for rescue operations in near realtime. I'm pretty much sure some people will literally die under wreckage because of communication interruptions as the result of this block. (For anyone telling to use VPN, yeah,…

> For anyone telling to use VPN, yeah, many people are used to using VPN because of these blocks not to mention, imagine learning to setup a VPN (Beacuse your life depends on it) while you're buried under rubble..

There's a very dark WikiHow article in the works here, or a SNL sketch

Re: Twitter restricted in Turkey in aftermath of earthquake

#376

Post by NovemberWhiskey » Wed, Feb 08, 2023, 6:31 PM UTC

alphanullmeric wrote: post #360

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've missed the point. It's not desirable to have listings which contain false advertising; the remedy for that is to restrict false advertising, not make every buyer chase the seller in a contract dispute after the fact. That would be insanity.

Nope, your comparison is just not equivalent. A sale is a transfer of property. We enforce the implicit contract that goes along with that. The buyer will pay, the seller will deliver, the product is accurate, etc. This discussion is about speech, for which no such contract exists. If you disagree, then you should have no problem arresting people for showing off a 3 watt bulb they claim to be 5 watts.

Holy false equivalent, Batman!

The poster's point was pretty simple: there is some speech which doesn't deserve to be fully protected to the highest possible level. Untrue commercial speech like false advertising is pretty much in that category. This is why we allow attorneys-general to bring cases against false advertisers, for example.

Usually the remedy is monetary damages, but injunctive relief is also available.

I can easily maintain that this is sensible and reasonable without "arresting people for showing a 3 watt bulb they claim to be 5 watts."

Re: Twitter restricted in Turkey in aftermath of earthquake

#377

Post by mrtksn » Wed, Feb 08, 2023, 6:31 PM UTC

Laaas wrote: post #350

mrtksn wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about that but maybe you can donate to Syria, they were heavily affected by the quake too.

Isn't that against sanctions?

I don't know but probably there are options to donate to organisations outside Syria which provide direct material help.

Re: Twitter restricted in Turkey in aftermath of earthquake

#378

Post by ryandrake » Wed, Feb 08, 2023, 6:31 PM UTC

Kukumber wrote: post #92

mrtksn wrote: post #20

Erdogan's first speech was almost 2 days after the earthquake and he said "We are monitoring who said what on the social media and tried to provoke the people. Today it's not the day to go after those but we take notes and when the day comes, we will go after them". Just look at his face when delivering this speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doy38aKbMw4 It's like from V for Vendetta. The lighting choice is very…

> Twitter was heavily used to seek help by people in turmoil, even hundreds of people were posting from under the rubbles. The officials were claiming that everything was under control and they are helping everyone but people were posting videos showing the situation on the ground and the situation didn't look even close to being under control. Social media is the first target no matter the country The US do the exac…

Your source links don't match up with what you're saying. For example, with [1#] you claim the US "controls" social media with CIA agents, but [1#] simply shows a social media company that merely hired former CIA agents. That's like saying Facebook hired a bunch of ex-Microsoft people, therefore Microsoft controls Facebook. Doesn't make sense.

Re: Twitter restricted in Turkey in aftermath of earthquake

#379

Post by peyton » Wed, Feb 08, 2023, 6:32 PM UTC

archagon wrote: post #366

alphanullmeric wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curiously, all the people that support such censorship in western countries are actually against it in this instance. Almost like whether or not they choose to support a policy depends not on what it does but instead on who it’s being done to.

Government censorship (and arrests!!) are in no way comparable to the “censorship” happening in western countries. (Namely, ToC violators getting banned, and government figures suggesting misinformation to look into.) The comparison is just obnoxious.

It’s not. Traditionally the government is in charge of the public square. If a private company is enforcing TOS violations while operating a public square, and operating a public square is traditionally a government function, it’s valid to argue violators are entitled to free speech protections.

Re: Twitter restricted in Turkey in aftermath of earthquake

#380

Post by mjburgess » Wed, Feb 08, 2023, 6:32 PM UTC

alphanullmeric wrote: post #360

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've missed the point. It's not desirable to have listings which contain false advertising; the remedy for that is to restrict false advertising, not make every buyer chase the seller in a contract dispute after the fact. That would be insanity.

Nope, your comparison is just not equivalent. A sale is a transfer of property. We enforce the implicit contract that goes along with that. The buyer will pay, the seller will deliver, the product is accurate, etc. This discussion is about speech, for which no such contract exists. If you disagree, then you should have no problem arresting people for showing off a 3 watt bulb they claim to be 5 watts.

Advertising is speech; there is no sale.