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Men Without Work (2016)

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371–380 of 471 posts

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#371
post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the goal of the system described above would be a more equitable distribution of economic gains (profits) and control - to avoid the concentration of wealth and power that comes from letting equity (capital) own and control businesses. Concentration of power is corrupting and the concentration of wealth is the concentration of power. It harms society at large. On top of that, work is where most people spend m…

In your worker co-op utopia, when say you envision the workers as the owners, how exactly does one change jobs then? Would I be forced to sell my ownership any/every time I wanted to leave a job? If not, wouldn't I just be an outside capitalist investor in my old company at that point? If yes, then am I bought out by the existing owners in an equitable manner? Or do new employees get my share of ownership? If they do…

Note, it's not a utopia - just better, not perfect. It's a refactor. An iteration on the existing system.

> when say you envision the workers as the owners, how exactly does one change jobs then? Would I be forced to sell my ownership any/every time I wanted to leave a job?

Open question. I think there are a couple of ways you could explore implementing this.

One would be through ownership similar to what you describe. Workers would earn ownership over the course of their employment, when they want to move jobs the cooperative has to buy out their share (which would also enable retirement) at some agreed upon value. The cooperative would have to maintain capital reserves to cover this case. It doesn't really make sense for workers to take their share with them with out equity markets. They'd just be selling their equity back to the cooperative at a later date.

Another approach would be to consider businesses as institutions to be governed, rather than property to be owned. In this case, no one owns the business. The workers govern it. There's no equity earned. It would be one worker one vote. In this case retirement would need to be handled either through pensions set aside, or more likely through national social security (which we already have). It's also possible that retirement could be handled through normal savings accounts. With out a stock market, financing would happen through traditional banks (as worker cooperatives), credit unions, or municipal banks and there would be much more incentive to pay real interest on savings accounts.

In the former case, the earned equity overtime probably more accurately values workers contributions, and therefor also founder contributions.

In the later case, the system is simpler, more egalitarian, and less prone to manipulation by founders looking to retain authoritarian power as long as possible.

Important to note, I think there are existing worker cooperatives experimenting with both implementations (and probably additional ones as well), so if we're interested in seeing the effects of each approach (and possible unintended consequences) it would be worth studying what they're doing.

If I ever manage to save up enough to take a multi-year sabbatical I want to write a book on the topic and do that research.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without people fighting and dying, there would be no conquest.

True. But those who won't fight and die in order to conquer can still be conquered by someone willing to fight and die to do so. Attacking another country is almost always evil. Defending your own is essential, at least until we get a world without evil people.

Yup. It’s always easier for a people to go ‘down the ladder’ into a more brutal place, than it is to go up it, all things considered.

It requires constant work to stop in oneself - and others won’t necessarily see or want to do it. True for people, true for societies too.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#373
post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also noticed this in university and I was curious enough about it to read some history books. I believe that society never cared about young men. They were always left to fend for themselves. In my opinion, the part that's new in modern times is the transparency caused by the internet. Rags to riches, washing dishes to becoming a billionaire, ... these stories have always been extremely unlikely to happen in practi…

To address a different point here - up until the 70’s, the US had and regularly used the draft. Most countries have mandatory military service for all males that starts anywhere from 16-18yrs old. Pretty much everywhere except some specific parts of the US (and still even then, though it’s not stated out loud), it’s expected for a man to get and hold a decent job, or women will ignore him and everyone will look down…

Most countries have mandatory military service? Care to back that up? While it’s certainly common I doubt it’s the majority

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#374
post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hah, ‘merely practical’ is high praise for a concern IMO? It does matter. Plenty of subcultures have done stuff that is technically illegal, or at least could be prosecuted/or would be made illegal if noticed, but was quite beneficial to them in their own view, by not getting enough attention to be worth directly attacking! Or having folks be distracted enough elsewhere to not go after them. I’m guessing most in the…

> Hah, ‘merely practical’ is high praise for a concern IMO? I'm not sure that you're following exactly what I mean. I'm saying that once any ethical barrier involving 'obligation' to society is overcome, it's a problem to be calculated like any else. What are the risks, what are the returns. As for the second part, it doesn't matter when the result is the same. I don't care if I'm being persecuted or ignored when my…

If you feel that way - you’ve likely never been actually prosecuted.

It tends to really bring the contrast out in the shit spectrum.

It can almost always get worse.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#375
post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To address a different point here - up until the 70’s, the US had and regularly used the draft. Most countries have mandatory military service for all males that starts anywhere from 16-18yrs old. Pretty much everywhere except some specific parts of the US (and still even then, though it’s not stated out loud), it’s expected for a man to get and hold a decent job, or women will ignore him and everyone will look down…

Most countries have mandatory military service? Care to back that up? While it’s certainly common I doubt it’s the majority

Here you go.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries...

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#376

My 2c. Society doesn't care about young men. They're pretty much left to fend for themselves. Hopefully they have a good family structure, and a few good male friends. Without that they're toally adrift. I learned this lesson when I got a flat tire driving across two states when I was 20. No one is willing to help. I guarantee a 20 yo woman would have no problem flagging down help, heck people would stop to help with…

I also noticed this in university and I was curious enough about it to read some history books. I believe that society never cared about young men. They were always left to fend for themselves. In my opinion, the part that's new in modern times is the transparency caused by the internet. Rags to riches, washing dishes to becoming a billionaire, ... these stories have always been extremely unlikely to happen in practi…

> Nowadays, it is not mandatory anymore for the man to have a good enough job to feed the family, because double-income-households have become the norm

I'm not sure I buy this. I think consensus mate selection preference of women is still that their partner earns more than they do. With women excelling in higher ed and in the workplace, pressure is even greater for men to be successful if they want to find a wife.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#377

My 2c. Society doesn't care about young men. They're pretty much left to fend for themselves. Hopefully they have a good family structure, and a few good male friends. Without that they're toally adrift. I learned this lesson when I got a flat tire driving across two states when I was 20. No one is willing to help. I guarantee a 20 yo woman would have no problem flagging down help, heck people would stop to help with…

> I guarantee a 20 yo woman would have no problem flagging down help, heck people would stop to help without being asked.

Could this be because a 20 yo woman was would be seen as helpless? Women are generally viewed by society as less physically threatening. Additionally, the lizard brain of heterosexual males will bias them towards stopping for a damsel in distress, even when the chances of reproduction are minuscule. All these factors are pretty in opposition to feminism

> It seems that the amount of grinding men have to do is increasing, and the net rewards society bestows seem to be decreasing.

Disaffected young men are a tale as long as time; few revolutions would have been successful without them, and they make voluntary armies possible.

> Or maybe this is a win for feminism?

Feminism will win when the average driver reckons a 20 y.o. woman is equally likely to bludgeon them in cold blood with a tire iron as a 20 y.o. man.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we take the poster with good faith we can assume he genuinely thought the doctor might know some useful ways he could be of help that neither he nor his wife knew. Even if there wasn't (which seems unlikely to me) I feel like good bedside manner should extend to a patient's loved ones when possible. Simply addressing him politely to say "Just be available and help as you can." would have be a far kinder way to blo…

A good example of something a doctor could tell the other half is like “if she can’t get out of bed and you take her blood pressure and it’s X then call me but if it’s Y then call 911”. Those are important things a partner needs to know during a pregnancy.

I did not got instructions for "if I can't get out of bed" and I was the pregnant one. Nor the relationships style advice about availability and interpersonal help.

Both kind of suggest there is not much to tell, like they are doctor going out of way to give advice about stuff they normally don't talk about, just to have something to say.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#380
post #2

In lieu of any particular review I’m submitting the Wikipedia page. I was unemployed for most of the Great Recession and can empathize with much of this book. I also just remember the “tragedy of my twenties” realizing society had basically no interest in me. Despite a math degree and IT/programming experience. Then the myriad people I’ve interacted with in the last decade plus who are in this situation. Luckily I no…

Yeah it seems like there used to be a cultural value of putting people to work. Generally speaking you had to be a real fuck-up to not get a job. Maybe the jobs available weren't the best, but you could get something to pay for basic food/housing with little effort or credentialing. The attitude was, if you were a decent person and willing to work, "come by and we'll find something for you to do". Now the zeitgeist i…

> Now the zeitgeist in the job market seems to be "Why should we give you the gift of this job? Speak quickly and well, lest we cast you back into the void! You are a piece of shit until proven otherwise!"

Last I heard, there's plenty of businesses that are deseprate to hire people (restaurants etc.).

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