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Is engineering management bullshit?

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Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#371

Post by erikpukinskis »

bonecrusher2102 wrote: post #6

This is such a tired take. It's part of a steady stream of commentary that reads something like "non-engineering-role X is bullshit." Here, we see engineers reduce the contributions of such common roles as: Product Manger, Program/Project Manager, Scrum Master, Marketer, CEO, etc., as fungible or run by the biggest boogeyman of all, the dreaded MBA. These arguments most typically result from not an inability, but an…

I don’t discount the importance of Managers. The thing I struggle with is Engineers trying to do the job of Manager without having any training or even really identifying as a manager. They still think their job is to supervise technical decisions.

Meanwhile there are numerous process and personnel challenges that go completely ignored, because these Engineering Managers think their primary responsibility is as some kind of overseer preventing employees from doing their jobs wrong.

I would love if software companies started hiring dedicated, trained Managers. But that doesn’t seem like a thing they do. Instead they just promote an Engineer to Engineering Manager and hope for the best.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#373

Post by erikpukinskis »

bumby wrote: post #311
015a wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe these articles are written by people who have never been managers themselves. I'd also posit that most of the defense of the position comes from managers. Do you not recognize the irony in this? I'm sure you're aware of what they say: Its difficult to get someone to understand something when their paycheck depends on it. Do you have the self-awareness to recognize that this, alone, is a huge reason why managers…

This is interesting. What, in your opinion, should the core definition be (if anything)? And how is that eroded when tasked to an engineering manager vs. a project manager? One of the major issues I have with the article is they lean heavily on the "creative work can't be managed like manufacturing widgets" train of thought. It feels to me that they define developers as artists when the article is about engineering.…

A Project Manager is a non-executive role. They facilitate the flow of information that keeps a project on track, including reporting progress up.

A Technical Lead, Design Lead, and/or Product Lead is the final arbiter of executive decisions about how a project will be completed.

A Coach meets regularly with ICs to help debug workflows and interpersonal issues.

A Manager signs paychecks, and takes responsibility for the work actually getting done professionally, reporting to HR when it’s not and taking action on behalf if The Company when needed. They are the legally responsible person for the things happening underneath them in the org chart. In an ideal week they do nothing at all.

Engineering Managers tend to do some combination of all of these things, usually most of them poorly since that’s way too much work for a single individual.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#374

Post by treis »

bumby wrote: post #311
015a wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe these articles are written by people who have never been managers themselves. I'd also posit that most of the defense of the position comes from managers. Do you not recognize the irony in this? I'm sure you're aware of what they say: Its difficult to get someone to understand something when their paycheck depends on it. Do you have the self-awareness to recognize that this, alone, is a huge reason why managers…

This is interesting. What, in your opinion, should the core definition be (if anything)? And how is that eroded when tasked to an engineering manager vs. a project manager? One of the major issues I have with the article is they lean heavily on the "creative work can't be managed like manufacturing widgets" train of thought. It feels to me that they define developers as artists when the article is about engineering.…

Not the GP but it's nigh on impossible for an EM to do their job. Roughly speaking they are supposed to be the voice of developers/engineering. But since they are not hands on the code they don't know the reality of the code base and so can't be an effective advocate. Ultimately they end up being a relayer of messages.

I think the role needs to exist but it's not a per team role. You need one for every 4 teams or so. They're there to build the teams, make sure they're running right, and do the high level resource allocation. Day to day management of the team should be a collaboration between a lead developer and a product owner.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#375

Post by dxf »

TheMagicHorsey wrote: post #346
dxf wrote: post #75

Very long time Engineering Manager here. Engineering Management is not bullshit, though there are many bad Engineering Managers out there, even at companies (like Google, where I've been an EM for over 6 years) that strive to build and support Engineering Managers. Google itself did research into the question of, "Do Engineering Managers matter?" The answer was Yes: Google set out to determine what makes a manager gr…

How did Google change its promotion policies based on the data? From my time working with Google it felt like there were a lot of bullshit artists in management. To be clear, there were also a lot of bullshit artists among the engineers too. Very few people were engaged in using their time productively. It's very fortunate for shareholders that Google has a cash-cow business, but to the article's point, once bullshit…

Changing perf/promo processes can be challenging. You can't always roll out minor changes (because the problems may be systematic), nor do them quickly; at Google's scale you need documentation and tooling to support your processes. You can try to fix some parts, but that can make other parts worse. But maybe that's OK. You can't optimize for everything, so you try to achieve the things you believe are most important and accept the remaining flaws.

Promotion policies continue to evolve at Google based on internally-sourced data. They changed most recently a few months ago. It's a constant that people don't like the current process, but they also don't like it when it changes :-). But I do appreciate that Google recognizes that the perf/promo processes could be better, and then they try to make them better.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#376

Post by vajrabum »

drewcoo wrote: post #319
vajrabum wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engineers generally don't take over the manager's responsibilities unless they're technical or reporting responsibilites. Generally it's another manager. Most companies require management involvement in P0 incident response for an example. At most companies I've worked at an engineer generally wouldn't be an acceptable substitute. A peer or the manager's boss usually takes it in their absence. It's not unusual that a…

> require management involvement in P0 incident response So in companies with lots of P0s, managers are missed more? Interesting take.

No it's simply an example of the sort of duty that management does not delegate to ICs. There are many.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#377

Post by fluoridation »

afarrell wrote: post #367
fluoridation wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really, that does not follow. It is possible to speak the truth by accident.

It is also possible to arrive safely at your destination via reckless driving.

It is equally incorrect to assume that someone who speaks "without a duty of care to the truth" is saying something true or false, if given no other information.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#378

Post by bumby »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #373
bumby wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is interesting. What, in your opinion, should the core definition be (if anything)? And how is that eroded when tasked to an engineering manager vs. a project manager? One of the major issues I have with the article is they lean heavily on the "creative work can't be managed like manufacturing widgets" train of thought. It feels to me that they define developers as artists when the article is about engineering.…

A Project Manager is a non-executive role. They facilitate the flow of information that keeps a project on track, including reporting progress up. A Technical Lead, Design Lead, and/or Product Lead is the final arbiter of executive decisions about how a project will be completed. A Coach meets regularly with ICs to help debug workflows and interpersonal issues. A Manager signs paychecks, and takes responsibility for…

Thanks, that's an good breakdown. I'm curious, is this an ideal or a pragmatic approach? At first blush, I understand the distinctions but it feels more like a theoretical organization rather than a real one. I've personally never worked in an org with all those roles so, as you say, they tend to get mashed together.

It does seem like there would be a naturally pressure to lump together the roles. I suspect that if your ideal week happens too much (where the manager does nothing at all), executives would question why they're needed.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#379

Post by bumby »

treis wrote: post #374
bumby wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is interesting. What, in your opinion, should the core definition be (if anything)? And how is that eroded when tasked to an engineering manager vs. a project manager? One of the major issues I have with the article is they lean heavily on the "creative work can't be managed like manufacturing widgets" train of thought. It feels to me that they define developers as artists when the article is about engineering.…

Not the GP but it's nigh on impossible for an EM to do their job. Roughly speaking they are supposed to be the voice of developers/engineering. But since they are not hands on the code they don't know the reality of the code base and so can't be an effective advocate. Ultimately they end up being a relayer of messages. I think the role needs to exist but it's not a per team role. You need one for every 4 teams or so.…

Maybe part of the problem is there is no consensus on what an EM "should" be doing. Note that the comment above this one gives a much different synopsis of the role.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#380

Post by feoren »

namdnay wrote: post #340
feoren wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So middle managers are important because upper managers are fucking awful? That's the idea? We need the middle-management tier because of the upper-management tier? And why is the upper-management tier there? To protect middle-management from the C-tier? I think you're kinda making our point here.

100%. And all of the above are necessary because customers and investors are the fucking worst. Ok, that’s how the world works, do we stick our fingers in our ears and pretend we can ignore it? Or do we embrace it and accept the rules of the game?

> Ok, that’s how the world works, do we stick our fingers in our ears and pretend we can ignore it? Or do we embrace it and accept the rules of the game?

Imagine having this attitude about literally any other widespread problem.

"Ok, everyone is spewing methane and carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. Do we close our eyes and ignore it, or do we join them and roll coal? LET'S BURN SOME FUEL BOYS"

"Ok, everyone is dumping toxic waste into the river. Do we just ignore it and keep drinking, or do we embrace it and just chuck our own toxic waste in there?"

"Ok, everyone is eating each other in Satanic canniablistic rituals. Do we just pretend it's not happening and go about our day, waiting to be eaten? Or do we fire up the grill and go on a hunt!?"

Um, how about a third option: we be vocal about how the problem is an actual problem and work together toward fixing it?

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