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Is engineering management bullshit?

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Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#311

Post by bumby »

015a wrote: post #145
rco8786 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s silly. Managers exist on the same spectrum as any other role. Most are about average. Some are better, some are worse. Same with engineers themselves. These articles are undoubtedly written by people who have never been managers themselves, and frankly just don’t have any idea what the job is for. Which is fine - everyone starts that way. But to then assume the job is useless is classic sign of imaturity. > No…

Maybe these articles are written by people who have never been managers themselves. I'd also posit that most of the defense of the position comes from managers. Do you not recognize the irony in this? I'm sure you're aware of what they say: Its difficult to get someone to understand something when their paycheck depends on it. Do you have the self-awareness to recognize that this, alone, is a huge reason why managers…

This is interesting. What, in your opinion, should the core definition be (if anything)? And how is that eroded when tasked to an engineering manager vs. a project manager?

One of the major issues I have with the article is they lean heavily on the "creative work can't be managed like manufacturing widgets" train of thought. It feels to me that they define developers as artists when the article is about engineering. I think those are different roles are different. Even though both require a certain amount of creativity/subjectivity, it's a mistake IMO to conflate the two.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#313

Post by abc_lisper »

adra wrote: post #213
abc_lisper wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have seen many (extremely smart too) engineers cry at work, but never managers. Make of it what you will.

People with emotional issues aren't as likely to be promoted into management. Management is often way more stressful as you're getting dumped on from above, from peer managers, and all the negative feedback from devs all at the same time (plus needing to actually facilitate getting things built). Maybe you work at some poor company that can't promote devs high enough so they're forced into some form of management rol…

>> People with emotional issues aren't as likely to be promoted into management.

And engineers who don’t invest in their work emotionally are not usually the best

>> Maybe you work at some poor company that can't promote devs high enough so they're forced into some form of management role to get a promotion.

How does this follow from what I said? Also, I have a bit of experience so it’s not one company

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#314

Post by switch007 »

robjan wrote: post #154
switch007 wrote: post #10

My manager joins our stand up and basically just says “had some meetings yesterday, have some more today”. No wonder why we think the job is BS

In the scrum guide, the scrum master is considered to have a management role. Although it's a management role, I don't believe it's a people management role. That's what the Engineering Manager does and ideally they wouldn't be attending the scrum.

We fought that battle and lost

But anyway my point was that he does a bad job at communicating what he does for us.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#316

Post by Cederfjard »

soperj wrote: post #254
nicoburns wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably someone was still managing you (e.g. there was someone for you to go to if you wanted to book time off, ask for a pay rise, etc)?

Vacations are booked through a booking system, pay raises are negotiated by a union, so not an issue.

Mind if I ask where you’re from? Even in highly unionized Scandinavia I’ve never seen software devs (specifically) join unions to any larger extent, let alone negotiate salary through them.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#317

Post by WalterBright »

I know the rank & file almost universally consider management to be morons and how could anyone be so incompetent and stupid. Naturally, in the businesses I've run, I'd get regularly informed about how incompetent and stupid I am, and how a squirrel could do better.

Yet anyone can start their own business, and thus prove how much better they are. Some do (even though their employees think they're incompetent), most fail.

I remember in particular a woman who worked at Microsoft in the 1990s. We knew each other through mutual friends. She heaped ridicule on how I ran my business. I'd just bite my tongue. One day she quit Microsoft, having made a fortune in MSFT stock options. She invested it all in her startup. A year passed, and she lost it all.

While I gave her a lot of points for putting her money where her mouth was, it was a brutal lesson in how difficult running a business at a profit is.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#318

Post by ragona »

halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #4

Most of the "engineering managers" I've had to work under have been utter bullshit. Didn't learn anything from them (technically or in regards to leadership) and were there merely to check a box, play babysitter and/or sit in meetings all day that had zero impact on our work streams. The few who did have impact (1) were skilled engineers in their own right and were able to translate that into more management, (2) und…

> understood that managing down is much more important than managing up and (3) knew how to say "no" to upper management effectively.

Wait, saying "no" to upper management _is_ managing upwards. If you have a high performing team you can damned near ignore them as long as you're paying attention to what matters to them so that you can manage up effectively and keep bullshit off their place. If you have a team that needs a lot of help then yes, you have to focus on managing "down" -- but that's the less common scenario in my experience.

I suspect you're defining "managing up" as "brown-nosing" -- which is just managing up ineffectively. Being good at managing up and out is honestly the bulk of the job at most organizations; engineers can usually just do their thing.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#319

Post by drewcoo »

vajrabum wrote: post #294
royaltheartist wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every job I've worked at, when a co-worker goes on vacation, it's up to the other engineers and laborers to compensate. When the manager goes on vacation there's no extra work leftover

Engineers generally don't take over the manager's responsibilities unless they're technical or reporting responsibilites. Generally it's another manager. Most companies require management involvement in P0 incident response for an example. At most companies I've worked at an engineer generally wouldn't be an acceptable substitute. A peer or the manager's boss usually takes it in their absence. It's not unusual that a…

> require management involvement in P0 incident response

So in companies with lots of P0s, managers are missed more? Interesting take.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#320

Post by b3morales »

liuliu wrote: post #60
rco8786 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s silly. Managers exist on the same spectrum as any other role. Most are about average. Some are better, some are worse. Same with engineers themselves. These articles are undoubtedly written by people who have never been managers themselves, and frankly just don’t have any idea what the job is for. Which is fine - everyone starts that way. But to then assume the job is useless is classic sign of imaturity. > No…

> Managers exist on the same spectrum as any other role. Most are about average. Some are better, some are worse. Same with engineers themselves. I do understand what OP said somewhat though. Mostly due to Peter's principle, thus, managers are not "about average" but "mostly incompetent". It is easier to promote people managers than ICs in growing organization, hence it is easier to play out Peter's principle in real…

The key that I think makes all the difference is to treat moving to management as not a promotion, but just a change to a different career track. Same as if the person went into design or any other non-engineering role.
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